ASHLEY TABATA: Trauma, Loss, Grief, and Healing

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Ashley Tabata, a Perinatal Mental Health Certified Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a staff member here in PSI’s Chapters Program, and just an overall wonderful human being. Truly. We were so honored to talk about her daughter, Harper, and to hold space for this very vulnerable conversation about trauma, loss, grief, and healing. Maybe grab the tissues. (Did someone cut the onions?) Stick around until the end for some lightning round firsts! Without further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Ashley. 

Mentioned on today's episode:

• PSI Perinatal Loss Training
• PSI Chapters Program
• Podcast: It's OK That You're Not OK with Megan Devine
• Watching: Stranger Things; How I Met Your Mother; Schitt's Creek
• Reading: It's OK That You're Not OK
• Contact Ashley: atabata@postpartum.net

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction | Trauma, Loss, Grief & Healing

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Ashley Tabata, a perinatal mental health certified, licensed clinical social worker, a staff member here in PSI's Chapters program, and just an overall wonderful human being. Truly. We were so honored to talk about her daughter Harper and to hold space for this very vulnerable conversation about trauma, loss, grief, and healing. Maybe grab the tissues. Did someone cut the onions? Stick around until the end for some lightning round firsts. And without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Ashley. Ashley, welcome to the podcast studio. We could not think of a better way to end this year on the pod team here in the studio, recording the very last recording of 2025.

Emily 0:55

Going out with a bang.

Dani 0:57

This'll come out in 2026, but this is the very last podcast recording of the year, and we've been trying to reschedule with you, and you've been so lovely. And we've been anxiously awaiting this conversation with you. And, you know, getting to hop out of spreadsheets for an hour and a half or so and just have a lovely conversation with you. So thank you so much for being here.

Ashley 1:19

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to be here. And I had no idea that this was going to be the last recording of the year. So that's pretty cool.

Emily 1:26

Well, now you know.

Ashley 1:27

Now I know. No, I'm really grateful to be here and to sit in a space with you guys.

Emily 1:32

Cool.

Dani 1:32

Awesome. Emily, would you like to get us started?

Emily 1:35

Why, yes. Ashley, we don't know your name. So please start by telling us your name and your pronouns. Like, are you a parent? Where do you live? What do you want people to know? Favorite pizza topping? Like, what's important? Get us started.

Ashley 1:48

Oh, pizza topping. Hmm. Well.

Dani 1:51

Controversial.

Ashley 1:52

I'm Ashley Tabata. She/her. I live in Illinois. Very cold these days. Uh, yes, I am also a parent. We have three living babies, three living children, and also an angel baby. And I'm a perinatal social worker, a licensed clinical social worker, which is new news for me, which is really exciting.

Dani 2:17

Hot off the press. Congratulations.

Ashley 2:20

Thank you. Yeah. And I do a lot of advocacy work for perinatal loss. Favorite pizza topping, it would be a vegan pizza.

Dani 2:29

Oh, interesting.

Ashley 2:30

A vegan cheeseburger pizza.

Emily 2:32

Oh, cheeseburger pizza. Yes.

Ashley 2:35

Yes.

Emily 2:36

Like lettuce, tomato, onion?

Ashley 2:37

All of it. Ketchup mustard pickle.

Dani 2:39

Oh.

Emily 2:40

Yes.

Dani 2:41

Okay, just a second. Pause the real reason we're here. Do you have a favorite place to get that? Or do you like assemble it yourself with your favorite vegan ingredients or– tell us more. I like to ask the hard-hitting questions, you know?

Ashley 2:54

Yeah, there's a local spot in Kansas City, actually, where I grew up, called Minsky's, and they have a really good cheeseburger pizza. Not vegan. That's where it started.

Dani 3:03

Not vegan, but...

Ashley 3:05

They have a vegan option.

Dani 3:07

Oh, oh, cool.

Ashley 3:08

Yeah. So that would be my recommendation if you ever.

Dani 3:11

Shout out to Minsky's, the very first sponsor of the podcast.

Emily 3:17

Right? That would be great. Call us.

Dani 3:19

That is very cool. Okay. Well, I have a suspicion about the next question, the answer to the next question.

Ashley 3:28

Yeah.

Dani 3:28

But Ashley, could you tell us what role, if any, perinatal mental health complications have played in your life, personally, professionally? Go on. We're all ears.

Ashley 3:39

There's multiple answers to that question.

Dani 3:42

Yes.

Emily 3:42

Often. Mm-hmm.

Ashley 3:44

Yeah. Well, so I'll lead with professional, being, you know, certified a perinatal mental health uh certified provider as well, and specialize in perinatal loss and grief and healing work and trauma. You know, being able to do that work is special. There aren't a lot of words to really describe it other than, yeah, it's just really special. It's hard to find words to describe it. And through my work, it's a way I get to parent all of our kids and also how I get to parent our daughter Harper and just continue her legacy in so many different ways. When it comes to personally, sometimes you don't know what you don't know until you're in it. And I think a lot of my experience is really a reflection of past experiences. But I think after we lost our daughter my following pregnancy, I experienced a lot of anxiety. I think it's fair to say, I mean, it's to be expected. Of course, you're gonna have anxiety when you lose a child. It was something that offered opportunity at times for a deeper level of healing, a deeper level of awareness. And also, I think just approaching it from the space of not feeling like I needed a formal diagnosis. Like, you know I don't, it's not about the diagnosis. It's about support, it's about finding meaning and self-acceptance and exploring ways to advocate for yourself, to ask for help if you need it, lean on your support system.

Dani 5:19

Yeah.

Emily 5:20

Was Harper your third pregnancy?

Ashley 5:22

Harper was my second pregnancy.

Emily 5:26

Okay.

Dani 5:27

Do you want to go back in time, Emily?

Emily 5:28

Yeah. I would like to hop in a time machine. Because I'm curious, like, do you personally feel like the what, where, when, why is important to your story? Because for some folks, the loss and why it happened is all very directly connected. And for others, it seems not to be, or it seems to be that's the thing that isn't part of the story that they want to tell when they're telling it. Do you feel like there's a connection? Do you want to talk about that at all?

Ashley 6:00

Well, I think it's all really for me and our experience, I think it's all really integrated. Because I think with perinatal loss, I think it's such an authentic journey for each person who goes through it, each kind of family. How can we go into that? I guess.

Emily 6:19

Whatever you want to share about the first pregnancy, the second pregnancy, the loss itself.

Ashley 6:26

Yeah.

Dani 6:27

I guess I'm thinking like on a timeline with your first pregnancy, did you experience any mental health complications or not?

Ashley 6:34

Yeah. Well, so I will say our oldest is my bonus daughter, and I am so grateful for her. Yeah. And so I think what carried a lot into the loss, I think, with Harper is um, in some ways, we knew we were having a girl, and of course, our son was in between. And so to be able to initially share, you know, a little sister coming into this space, and then three weeks later having to say that our, you know, that she had passed away was so dynamic. When it comes to perinatal mental health conditions, I think in hindsight with my first pregnancy, I think I experienced some anxiety postpartum after my first pregnancy that may have been a little bit out of, I guess what they call what, the baby blues.

Dani 7:25

Right, first couple of weeks.

Ashley 7:26

Yeah. And I mean, I think I've befriended it a lot in a lot of ways to just really understand that in a lot of ways, I think anxiety is really misunderstood. And I think in my healing journey, overall, I think it's, you know, I renegotiated my relationship of understanding that a lot of times anxiety was trying to protect me. And anxiety was really trying to show me the things that I really cared about and things that were really important to me. And so I think it was a lot of reframing of, oh, okay, I really care about this. How can I navigate it maybe in a way that feels less survival instinct and more what do I need in the moment? So I think that was where a lot like kind of played a role, more in reflection. And then after, you know, we lost Harper, that was in May of 2019, right before the world shut down.

Dani 8:19

Right.

Emily 8:20

Right.

Ashley 8:20

And so then, right, we found out that we were expecting our youngest over that summer, over summer of 19, 2019, and just were navigating a lot of different experiences with that. At that point, I had stepped out of my corporate role because getting back to life after our loss was really confusing and really hard and navigating the expectations of the world. It just felt like too much. And so we made some family decisions, having no idea what was on the horizon a handful of months later. And so then, in some ways, we also had to quarantine a little earlier in 2020 because they didn't know what was going on and the impact. And so then we were really forced to sit inside of our grief in ways that I don't think we ever could have anticipated. And it really complicated things at times because it was just so much, so much uncertainty. But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it's just really integrated together. And I gained more insight, I would say, almost every day of my life now in a reflection of just like, oh, wait a second. Maybe that's why things felt that way, or right? Just creating more understanding for that, you know, that season of who I was. So when we were pregnant with Harper, it was right around a birthday time. Most of our family was in town. So we did this like big gender kind of reveal situation, and we hadn't done that before. It was a whole thing.

Emily 9:46

At the time, was it like so fun and lovely, or was it like a lot of work for you?

Ashley 9:52

All of the above.

Emily 9:54

Okay. Okay.

Ashley 9:55

It was all of the above because we also, I don't know, it's like we wanted to share certain things. So then it's like, okay, but we don't keep secrets in the family. This is like a surprise for the family.

Dani 10:05

Yeah.

Ashley 10:05

So it was also right that delicate dance, I feel like, between all the things, but it was so special. And we have the videos of it.

Dani 10:12

Yeah.

Ashley 10:13

And so accessing that video and seeing that moment of joy, even though there's a lot of grief within that moment of joy now.

Emily 10:22

Yeah.

Ashley 10:23

It at times is nice to do a gentle check-in with it.

Emily 10:27

Yeah.

Dani 10:27

What is a gentle check-in look like? Like, do you like you watch it, or...?

Ashley 10:32

When a memory pops up and then it's like, here it is.

Dani 10:35

Ah.

Ashley 10:36

Yeah. But then sometimes there's more intentionality with it of giving myself the permission to say, but in this moment we were really excited for her.

Dani 10:43

Mm-hmm.

Emily 10:44

Yeah.

Dani 10:44

Right.

Ashley 10:45

Yeah. And then, you know, the handful of weeks after that, then having to share the life-altering news.

Dani 10:52

Which is heavy in itself because it's not just you. Now, all of these people have had similar visions of like, oh, how are family's gonna change and have their own feelings of possibly excitement or anticipation, and then you have to tell them this news and then they have feelings. But like, is there room or time or space for your feelings or...?

Ashley 11:13

Yeah, that's a whole dynamic dynamic journey.

Dani 11:17

Mm-hmm.

Emily 11:17

Yeah.

Ashley 11:18

So then when we got pregnant with our youngest, that's when we made the decision we didn't want external noise for a lot of reasons. Also, just timing. There was an overlap. So there was a time that I should have still been pregnant with Harper, that I was pregnant with our youngest. And so I was my own trigger. I was the pregnant person.

Emily 11:42

That you were just exposing yourself to yourself all the time.

Ashley 11:45

All the time. And so we didn't tell people. And when we did decide, I think I was probably 20 weeks when we shared the news with like super immediate family and like maybe two or three friends. I mean, it was very, very close. The world met our youngest. I mean, that's when they found out that I had been pregnant, was when I had delivered her. And at that point, too, with I guess quarantine and just things were changing in the world. I guess if there's something that was in or on our side, I guess, in that moment, is that I didn't have to be around people at that time necessarily to share.

Dani 12:25

Yeah.

Emily 12:26

Yeah. I have follow-up questions.

Ashley 12:28

Yeah.

Emily 12:30

Okay. So I am coming at this from the lens of the daughter of someone who experienced loss after 20 weeks. Right? So I was the older sibling. How far along were you? Were you then afraid? Or like, was there any guidance from like the doctors about like don't get pregnant soon after or anything like that? I can like I'm remembering all of the stories that my mom told me. So I'm literally asking because you know, I'm like the kid that goes, gosh, I have a lot of questions.

Ashley 13:06

Yeah.

Dani 13:07

You told your family about losing Harper, right? And then shortly after that.

Ashley 13:12

Yeah, just a couple months. Yeah. It was just too much to process, I think, for my brain, just the human brain. There was too much. I remember when I found out, I went to my doctor's office, and at that point my husband hadn't, I hadn't even mentioned it to him. And I remember just sitting in the doctor's office just sobbing. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna survive this because it was really scary. Cause I was very, you know, so much in, I would say, the acute space of my grief and healing. I hadn't re-established a relationship with my body where I trusted my body at that point.

Emily 13:48

Yeah.

Ashley 13:48

And so I think that there was just so much going on in my brain that, oh my gosh, my doctor like just sat with me, like just sat there with me. It was such a human moment. And I had a few of those throughout my journey, which I am forever grateful for. But I wasn't rushed, I wasn't dismissed. It was, I wasn't a number. It was just very human. And then when I cry, my face stays red for hours. So I came home and I couldn't hide that I had been crying at that point.

Dani 14:22

Yeah.

Ashley 14:23

And then that's when I shared, of course, the news with my husband, and-

Emily 14:26

What was his reaction? Because it's complicated for both of you, but like your reactions aren't necessarily gonna be the same, right?

Ashley 14:34

Yeah. We sat in silence for a minute. He was actually sitting in our backyard at the time when I went out to find him and to let him know. It's a little bit of a blur, if I'm honest, but I think that there was just silence at first because it was so much to process.

Emily 14:51

Yeah.

Ashley 14:52

There's that fear. I mean, you feel really scared because you've now survived and lived a reality that is talked about, but sometimes not talked about in ways. I don't know, just this, yeah, you're just living this reality now.

Dani 15:09

Were you kind of playing like what ifs in your head? Were they just kind of popping in? You said you were feeling, you know, scared.

Ashley 15:16

Sure. Yeah.

Dani 15:17

Was it, oh, is this gonna happen again type of a thing or...?

Ashley 15:22

All of it.

Emily 15:23

Yeah.

Ashley 15:23

If we get clinical gently for a moment, I mean–

Dani 15:27

Let's do it.

Ashley 15:27

Well, but just, you know, it's normalizing that, you know, what's talked about clinically right or cognitive distortions, naming the what-ifs, the catastrophizing, like all of those things, those intrusive thoughts, those unwanted thoughts that surface. But that's it's a normal part of naming that fear because you've lived it, you've survived it. And so we created space for all of those thoughts and those questions because we needed to, and we weren't afraid to say it out loud and fit into societal's expectation of what we should be talking about in those moments.

Dani 16:08

Or how you should be feeling and...

Ashley 16:10

Correct, yeah.

Emily 16:11

Like just put all of the complicated feelings into a little box that you ignore.

Ashley 16:16

Yeah.

Emily 16:16

And choose to be only happy, or hear me out, both things can happen at once, right? And you can be like, I'm maybe, maybe excited, but also I'm afraid of X and Y and Z, and like naming the things so that you're not carrying them around.

Ashley 16:33

Yeah. And in, you know, ways in where we've created meaning, reflection of, hindsight of is in some ways, Harper brought us to our youngest. Because, you know, if Harper was born, our youngest wouldn't be here. And so the existence of grief and gratitude existing together, not even a space of coexisting, but just simultaneously existing, is yeah, just sometimes you create your meaning in your healing journey.

Emily 17:02

Absolutely. There's like wisdom in that, like knowing that sometimes the meaning isn't just going to be like the neon sign that's flashing through your experience. It's like you have to go, okay, like what can I have taken from that that is worth taking, you know, that moment, that experience, those feelings, whatever.

Ashley 17:20

And that was also something I think that was really nuanced if we use a word. It's not about lessons, because that's also a part that complicates the journey so much, is where that kind of guilt and shame comes from in the journey for me was the things that I should have done differently, right? Or that search of the what happened. You know, it's how do I define what this means for me in this context and it might look really different. So kind of bringing in what I feel aligned with and releasing what doesn't was also really nuanced.

Dani 17:55

Yeah. I am curious. There you are in the pandemic.

Ashley 17:59

Yeah.

Dani 17:59

You have experienced a loss, you are experiencing a pregnancy right after a loss. The entire world is shut down. You're feeling lots of feelings, understandably.

Ashley 18:10

Yeah.

Dani 18:11

Like there's just like a whole lot happening.

Ashley 18:13

Yeah.

Emily 18:14

Yeah.

Dani 18:14

Were you processing all of the things like while you were pregnant with your youngest?

Emily 18:20

Yeah. Did you have like a support group or something?

Dani 18:22

Yeah. Who'd you talk to? Besides your husband, who I'm sure is a lovely human. Um, do you have like a cat or something that you can sort of like chat with? No, I'm kidding. I'm joking. but yeah, what was that like?

Ashley 18:35

So when we initially left the hospital after, which is also a whole other experience, right? Leaving the hospital without a baby, they give you like a packet of information of resources, which also is its own experience. But in that there was a support group that we had found. It was a community support group that met once a week. Gosh, I think the first time we went to that group was two weeks after we lost Harper.

Dani 19:01

Oh, okay. So that's like June 2019, just to keep everybody on the timeline here.

Ashley 19:07

Yeah.

Dani 19:07

Things hadn't shut down at that point, so.

Ashley 19:09

No, yeah. So things hadn't, we had found some community, and we needed to figure out a lot of boundaries with that because you're also hearing other people's stories, and that can feel like a lot. And so there's a lot of just raw emotion. And so we found the support group and we went there. It's monthly, not weekly, but we were able to attend the group.

Dani 19:32

Together?

Ashley 19:33

Mm-hmm.

Dani 19:33

Okay.

Ashley 19:34

I think I went a few times on my own, and then my husband started to join, which was really, I think, great for both of us for so many different reasons. Just because there's an individual and a collective healing journey.

Emily 19:46

Yeah.

Ashley 19:47

So, in some ways, just a community that we could also sit in space with that didn't have to really say anything that just people understood, unfortunately, what we were going through from their own lived experience.

Emily 19:59

Because this was a community of parents who've experienced loss?

Ashley 20:03

Yeah, this was like a loss group. It wasn't like a pregnancy after a loss group, though. And so that was something that we had to navigate. We were honest with the facilitators, and I was able to wear certain clothing, but I wanted to also be really intentional too, because I was living the life of being my own trigger. I didn't want to cause anybody else trauma in the group.

Dani 20:28

Yeah.

Ashley 20:28

So there was just a lot of intentionality that we were able to also kind of bring in. But once everything kind of shifted in the world, a lot went online, which was helpful. So we could still attend at that point. It felt okay to be there. We have two dogs. So I had my dogs who were always, I mean, they still are. They're, I don't know, you can tell them things and they don't share it with the world.

Dani 20:54

Yes.

Ashley 20:55

But yeah, and you know, there was some friends I reconnected with because that was also a secondary loss that I experienced was who showed up or who we felt showed up for us the way that we needed it following. And so there were some secondary losses, but also I was able to reconnect with some people who really showed up.

Dani 21:14

Yeah. I just want to say, I know I made a joke about the cat earlier, but I am so glad that you had your dogs there because sometimes it's so healing whether it's writing something down or saying something out loud. And even if there are no other human ears to hear it, if there's no animals or a couple of lovely dogs, it feels good to be able to say things out loud. So is that what you were saying, Ashley, that you were able to say some things out loud? You know, you're kind of sitting by yourself slash with your pups.

Ashley 21:42

Totally. Well, because you could also test that. Like I want to say this out loud, but I don't know the audience yet. How is this gonna sound?

Dani 21:50

I wonder how it'll even sound coming out of my mouth and me hearing it. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Ashley 21:55

Yeah.

Emily 21:55

Yeah.

Ashley 21:56

Kaya, she's our older dog. Oh, they're both older dogs.

Dani 21:59

Shout out to Kaya, hey.

Ashley 22:01

Yeah. She gives the best hugs. And so sometimes she would just sit there and I would just give her like this big hug, and she will just sit. So there's also this energy exchange where I feel like in a lot of ways she would calm me.

Dani 22:15

Therapy dog!

Ashley 22:17

Well, she likes to bark.

Dani 22:19

Okay, whatever. But I mean in those moments with you. Yeah.

Ashley 22:23

Yeah, there was just a regulation that came from it that I'm also very grateful for. Also, just myself. I feel like the permissions that I gave myself. Oh, and I had a therapist at the time too, where I was able just to, well, my husband encouraged me to kind of get back at that point. And I think I had a lot of fear with that. And I remember the first time I sat down with her at the time. I was like, hey, we're not gonna negotiate my guilt. So I don't want that to be a focus of the conversation of how we can get rid of this. Like this is gonna be a part of my journey.

Dani 22:56

Yeah.

Ashley 22:57

Or the shame or like a lot of the things that were happening. And she received it. And even though loss wasn't a specialization, I think she just authentically showed up for me in a way. And so that was also really helpful, too, that we didn't have to go in more than I was ready. And it wasn't about, it was about like, hey, what do you want to tell your guilt right now? Or right? It was just different types of questions, I guess, that were offered that was just allow me to speak out loud and to process.

Emily 23:27

Yeah.

Dani 23:27

That's cool.

Emily 23:28

So you kind of had help, at least with the grief and loss piece. When you were anxious postpartum subsequently, was there a watershed, I need help, or was it a undercurrent of a level of anxiety that you were just living with?

Ashley 23:47

Yeah, I would say that. And in some ways, it's kind of like when steam is coming out slowly.

Emily 23:55

Yeah.

Ashley 23:55

And then there were moments where things were just overflowing because your brain is still processing so much. And my body had been pregnant for a longer period of time.

Dani 24:07

Yes.

Ashley 24:08

There was just a lot of, a lot of a lot.

Emily 24:11

Yeah.

Dani 24:12

Physically depleted, mentally, emotionally depleted.

Ashley 24:15

And like is the world ending?

Dani 24:17

Also. Follow-up question: Are we gonna be okay? Like what's happening? Is this our life now? Like forever?

Emily 24:24

There are dolphins in the canals in Venice? Also, there are no people, like...

Ashley 24:30

Well, and that's where I mean there were just things spinning all at once. Cause also there was a chance we were daily towards the end having to call my doctor to see if my husband was even gonna be allowed into the hospital with me.

Dani 24:42

Right.

Emily 24:42

Yeah.

Ashley 24:43

And so that was also a terrifying thought of I have to step back into the place where so much experience happened.

Dani 24:52

Same hospital.

Ashley 24:54

Yeah.

Emily 24:54

Same doctor, different doctor?

Ashley 24:56

Same doctor.

Emily 24:57

Ooh.

Dani 24:57

Was that a good thing? Yeah.

Ashley 25:00

She is an amazing human. She's delivered all three of our kids.

Dani 25:05

Aw.

Ashley 25:06

And she also, with Harper, sitting in the hospital with me, was also really human. And so I felt safe with her on a very different level than I've probably felt safe with a medical provider. And she really advocated in so many different ways.

Emily 25:24

What does that she was more human mean?

Ashley 25:28

That's a good question.

Emily 25:29

Less detached? Like, did your doctor show emotion?

Ashley 25:33

Yeah. So in May, so I went to the ER with complications. And I remember I called the office and I was like, there's just this alarm. It was, it's hard to describe, but it was like this alarm was going off in my body that something was wrong. And so in that interaction, we can monitor it and then come in tomorrow, but also just listen to yourself. If you like need to go, go. And so it was like the permission that I needed, I guess, in that moment because I didn't know. And I tried to lay down and go to sleep. It was impossible. And so she opened up her practice the next morning for us. Because of course, at that point, she had gotten the news from the ER, which the ER was a traumatic experience. She opened up her practice and we came in to her office. Uh, we brought our son with us at the time, and she handed him this big blue teddy bear. She was like, take it, it's his. But it was also to help distract him so she could speak with us.

Emily 26:32

Yeah.

Ashley 26:32

But our family doesn't live in Illinois. And so my husband dropped me off at the hospital at that point, went home to get all the stuff. The hospital made an exception and let us bring our son to the hospital with us, which I'm very grateful for.

Dani 26:44

Wow.

Ashley 26:45

In that time, it was about an hour and a half. And my doctor came into my hospital room and sat with me. And there was emotion, but it's also something hard to describe. No one else, not one other provider, came into the room. It was just her and I for that like 90 minutes together. I don't know if that was intentional or what conversations took place, but she just sat with me and we reflected and there was emotion, but it also wasn't a doctor-patient experience, if that makes sense. But it's also hard to really describe it. So just knowing that I was gonna have her with us with my following pregnancy, there was a comfort knowing that I wasn't gonna have to, well, I still had to answer some questions every now and again, just in general, but...

Emily 27:36

Like on a scale of one to ten, right?

Ashley 27:38

Yeah, just you know, it was just a very again, I come back to just a human experience. It was, I've read your chart, I know your chart, I know your story. I'm not gonna make you answer questions in this moment. So it felt a bit trauma-informed at times, interacting with her.

Dani 27:56

Like you could say things at a time that felt safe or comfortable to you. You knew that you could bring things up to her.

Ashley 28:04

Yeah. You know, because at that point too, my husband couldn't come into the doctor's appointment. So when I was frantically crying, I could FaceTime him and be like, please tell her I'm not like this all the time. Like I'm having a moment. I'm scared, you know. I could just be myself.

Dani 28:17

Yeah.

Ashley 28:17

All of me, all parts of my grief and healing was honored.

Dani 28:21

Yeah.

Ashley 28:21

She would talk about Harper.

Dani 28:23

Oh.

Ashley 28:24

Mm-hmm.

Emily 28:25

That's a good doctor.

Dani 28:26

I love that we've said Harper's name so many times.

Ashley 28:28

Oh, I know. Thank you. Yeah.

Dani 28:31

I know that like just having lost important people in my life, saying their names and including them in conversations is important. So that's great that she did that.

Ashley 28:42

Yeah.

Emily 28:42

Yeah.

Dani 28:43

Helps you feel good inside and seen and understood.

Emily 28:47

Yeah.

Dani 28:48

I'm over here like blacking out on questions. I have them in front of me, but I'm like, I've just been like (sniffles) the whole time.

Emily 28:55

I got you. Okay. When did you learn about PSI in the course of all of this?

Dani 29:02

After this? Before it? When?

Ashley 29:04

Quite a bit longer after, actually. So in my healing journey, there's just something about sharing our story, but also when I would share our story, how many people would reach out to me privately.

Emily 29:16

Yes.

Ashley 29:16

And these are people I've known either for years or sometimes people I didn't know that would reach out and just be like so-and-so, you know, shared your story or your video, and it really meant a lot. How did you share it? Sometimes on social media, well, I also am a yoga facilitator.

Dani 29:31

Oh.

Ashley 29:31

So I've created a social media platform for that. And so I started kind of slowly transitioning, not transitioning it, but integrating. I think that's a better way. I started to include other parts of our story and just life lived experience. Over time, I started thinking about like I just, there was something in me. I was like, I needed to do something and the lack of legislation to support. To gently share a timeline of, you know, I went to the ER on a Friday, delivered Harper Saturday, was released Sunday, just kind of in general, just kind of zooming out away from my experience of at that point, the expectation in some ways is to return to work that Monday. At that time, you know, the company I was working for was uh incredibly supportive in that window of, you know, giving time. But there was just so many different things of just understanding there wasn't legislation that was supporting loss families.

Emily 30:24

Like how do you qualify for family medical leave kind of things?

Ashley 30:28

Or do you? And that is a state-by-state situation and all of that. So I just there was like this need, there was just something in me. And so that's where I decided to start exploring going back to school to get my master's in social work. And in that journey is how I learned about PSI. The Illinois board was recruiting.

Dani 30:48

PSI Illinois.

Ashley 30:49

Yeah.

Dani 30:50

Shout out to the chapter. Hello.

Ashley 30:52

That's how I learned about. I mean, I had heard of before just resources that are shared here and there, but to really understand the depth of what PSI is doing in that kind of a way. And then later found there were other connections in my family to PSI from many, many years ago, which was also...

Dani 31:10

Really?

Ashley 31:10

Yeah, there's just a lot of it's can we use serendipitous? I don't know. There's just serendipitous, or like there was just- there were connections, uh, an undercurrent. I think Emily, you described it earlier, just these connections.

Emily 31:22

Like everything's moving in some direction. I'm not clear, but I'm going this way too.

Ashley 31:28

Yeah. So yeah, I got involved with the board and learned about PSI, served on the board, you know, in a lot of ways, and continue to be in some ways, and then was able to join the organization as a staff member, which how incredible is that, so.

Emily 31:44

Very.

Dani 31:45

Answer: very incredible. I think uh you are not alone in not knowing about PSI. I wish I would have known 15 years ago, and, not but, and here we are.

Ashley 31:58

But that's I think also why it's so important is there are resources. It's how are the resources getting into the providers that are supporting the community? And that's also why my like that pull that I had, that need of there are support groups, there are people in the community, there are things that are available, there are organizations, so many organizations that are doing incredible things. And so I've described it in my journey of I have experienced a lot of reverse healing. That as I learned about all of these incredible humans doing this work, it has healed parts of me that felt lost or isolated or abandoned in those earlier days of my journey. That it was almost like I got to bring these things back to that version of me, that part of me that felt so alone. So she's gotten to heal, which is pretty cool.

Dani 32:52

We're happy for her.

Ashley 32:53

Yeah.

Emily 32:54

Okay. So we know that the chapters program is integral to how you are supporting folks now, but I want to know something a little bit different because chapters was your entree, and now chapters is your professional work in part, right? What drew you? What keeps you there? Like what is the sweetest, best part of like the chapters program that folks need to know?

Dani 33:21

Not on the list of questions.

Emily 33:22

Well, I need to know.

Dani 33:24

Let's do it.

Ashley 33:26

There are incredible humans doing such important work and are volunteering time and dedicating time to collective healing and collective work and changing systems and empowering and just taking messaging out to people like me who felt so lost. I don't even know how to get out of bed and brush my teeth in the morning, let alone function in the world around or go grocery shopping and not leave my grocery cart in the middle of the store because I got triggered by something and I left. But to also bring the resources, I mean, and the depth of all of those who are serving on the chapters too, not only are they doing that work, but the knowledge that people have through maybe their own lived experiences and what they're doing for the world.

Emily 34:22

Yeah.

Ashley 34:23

It is so incredible to work alongside and with people in the organization, in the chapters program, all the people on the boards. I mean, there's so many people that are supporting other providers and trying to change different things and bring resources into organizations and their communities to also support the help seekers. And then you see those, you know, individuals also transitioning in some kind of a way to share their story or explore other ways that they hope to get involved. I mean, it is an incredible massive network.

Emily 35:01

It's a network, it's like action towards like systemic change, right? I mean, yeah.

Ashley 35:07

And that's pretty, pretty cool. It's special, and I know I've used that word a lot, and I probably will continue.

Dani 35:15

Do it.

Emily 35:16

Yeah.

Ashley 35:16

So there's so much. And then you meet people in person somewhere, you in interact with somebody, and you have that then energy exchange with people, and-

Emily 35:27

Yes.

Ashley 35:28

I don't know, it changes lives, it saves lives.

Emily 35:31

Yeah. That energy exchange that so resonates. And- Yeah. spreading awareness of what we need awareness of, these complications that are during trying to conceive all the way through postpartum and trying to raise awareness of like the things that PSI offers, that the state chapters are trying to do, the efforts on every level. It's like it just feels like a giant megaphone.

Ashley 35:59

Yeah.

Emily 35:59

I'm like picturing the giant megaphone that's like, we're doing the thing, and this thing, and that thing, and that thing too! Like...

Ashley 36:06

So many things. And every state has kind of their own experience in it of how they're trying to do it that kind of aligns with wherever they are. And they lean on each other. And so to be a part of that and to have learned about the opportunity and then been like, yes, I do want to figure out a way because to do this work or do it kind of in a different way, and then to be able to have had that opportunity.

Emily 36:32

Yeah.

Ashley 36:33

I know I said it earlier. It's just through my work, I get to parent all of our kids and Harper. And Harper brought me to all of this work. And I get to create spaces as a therapist and perinatal social worker for people to navigate their healing journeys. I mean, that's...

Emily 36:48

Yeah.

Ashley 36:49

For people to allow me to be a part of that journey or this space. Yeah, it's really special.

Emily 36:54

You're like, I want to make the world a better place. And then people are like, come on, here's your spot in this group project that we all get to do together.

Ashley 37:02

Yeah. Oh, I'm noticing myself getting emotional. Yeah, it's- and I tried to be intentional not to cry, but...

Emily 37:09

Well, you're gonna go home with a red face. Sorry.

Dani 37:11

Nice try.

Ashley 37:16

I just never, I don't know if Ashley on May 3rd of '19 would have seen where I am today. Cause, you know, sometimes it's like, how am I gonna survive this? How am I gonna trust myself again? Just all of those things. And then you realize that, you know, my intention, my goal is not to be healed, but I want to continue healing because sometimes things revisit and it's an opportunity for me to heal from the same thing over and over on a deeper way, in a deeper way, because maybe I have more capacity. But in my healing journey too, I feel so much closer with Harper. And yeah, I just- it's just ways I get to parent her, so.

Dani 37:59

Yeah.

Ashley 38:00

Oh.

Dani 38:00

I wish we could jump through the- jump through Riverside and give you a big hug. Oh my gosh. Uh okay. Listen, if anybody just heard all those awesome things about chapters and is interested, we're gonna put a link in the show notes to PSI's chapters program.

Ashley 38:18

Yeah.

Dani 38:18

So check it out.

Ashley 38:20

Yeah.

Dani 38:20

Thank you for sharing about that. And that is very cool. I did not know. I don't know how I didn't know, but I didn't know that that was your entree into PSI.

Ashley 38:30

Yeah, was the state chapter, yeah.

Dani 38:32

That is cool. Hey, hey, PSI Illinois.

Emily 38:35

Hey.

Ashley 38:37

Yeah.

Dani 38:38

Ashley, is there anything that you would like to talk about that we haven't asked about? Anything you would like to say? There's zero wrong answers here. They're all right answers. Just throwing it out there uh before we jump into a lightning round.

Ashley 38:54

Ah, the lightning round. Well, if I were to say or add anything, just I guess gently reminding people, I mean, your grief journey is yours. No one gets to tell you how to grieve. There is no timeline.

Emily 39:11

Yeah.

Ashley 39:12

And grief is love with nowhere to go. And so it integrates into life in so many different ways. And, you know, hearing different stories, there's your story, there's your experience. It doesn't have to be compared or anything to anybody else. Yours, yours is yours. And just giving yourself that permission to really advocate for yourself whatever that looks like. And that all emotions matter. That sometimes grief and healing, may be the first time for me, it was- there was a lot of things that I was navigating in it with emotions and things like that, that all emotions are valid. And that there are incredible providers out there that are doing the work, that are facilitating conversations. And it's really up for you know an individual to say, you know, is this the space that feels trustworthy? Because sometimes trustworthy leads to those safe spaces. Sometimes it doesn't start with feeling safe for whatever that reason is.

Emily 40:15

Yeah.

Ashley 40:15

But nobody gets to tell you how to grieve. That's your journey.

Dani 40:18

Yeah. Another cool thing that I know PSI has for providers or anybody interested, grief and loss–

Emily 40:27

Training.

Dani 40:27

Yeah. So I was wondering if maybe that might be a good thing to throw in the show notes as well, if any providers are listening and they're interested.

Ashley 40:36

Yeah. So there is a grief and loss training. There are also support groups for families as well.

Emily 40:44

And if you want like a one-to-one, you know, finding a peer mentor would be another way because they can pair a loss parent with another loss parent.

Dani 40:52

Yeah, that's another good one. Fun fact that was my entree into PSI. I was a peer mentor.

Emily 40:58

Make sure you read the course description for grief and loss and like self-evaluate because if you've experienced a loss, like you have to know going in they're going to be having tough conversations, so.

Dani 41:08

Yeah. But we'll put a link to all that in the show notes for anybody interested. Ashley, without any further ado, are you ready for the very highly anticipated lightning round?

Ashley 41:19

Yes.

Dani 41:21

I don't know.

Ashley 41:21

Oh gosh. Here we go.

Dani 41:23

Okay. Ashley, besides this podcast, duh, what's your second favorite podcast?

Emily 41:30

Because we're number number one.

Ashley 41:32

Oh my gosh, that's a great question.

Dani 41:36

Okay.

Ashley 41:36

And it's a lightning round, so I'm supposed to go fast.

Dani 41:41

No, hang on.

Emily 41:42

This is a terrible lightning round. It always takes time. Take your time.

Dani 41:46

It's the molasses round. Also, I will say it doesn't have to be mental health related. It could be like, you know how many people listen to murder podcasts? I'm like, that's scary, but okay, I'll put it in the show notes. I mean, who knows? What are you interested in? Do you listen to podcasts?

Ashley 42:00

I don't know if I listen to podcasts. That's really funny because–

Dani 42:03

Except for ours.

Ashley 42:04

No, yes, yes, yes.

Dani 42:06

I'm joking.

Ashley 42:06

Start over. Start over.

Emily 42:13

I don't listen to ours either. Duh.

Dani 42:18

I was here.

Ashley 42:19

I was thinking outside of this space.

Dani 42:21

Yes.

Ashley 42:21

Megan Devine has a great grief podcast.

Emily 42:24

Ooh.

Ashley 42:25

Yeah. She has a book that is a profound resource, which led me to her podcast.

Dani 42:32

Okay, cool.

Ashley 42:33

Yeah.

Dani 42:33

Megan Devine's podcast on grief. And she wrote a great book too, which is maybe a follow-up to uh–

Emily 42:40

I know. Are you binge watching or reading or listening to anything really good? Like what's in the Netflix queue or new book series I need to put on my, like, Libby. Go.

Ashley 42:53

Okay. Uh so Netflix queue.

Dani 42:58

Got my pen ready.

Emily 42:59

Or Hulu, whatever. We don't discriminate. Choose a platform.

Ashley 43:02

We'll just say queue.

Emily 43:04

Yeah.

Dani 43:04

Okay.

Ashley 43:05

Stranger Things.

Emily 43:07

God yes! Hold on, I'm only on the third episode.

Dani 43:10

Of the latest season. Are you caught up?

Ashley 43:12

A hundred percent. Yes.

Dani 43:13

There are some teenagers in my house that have caught up.

Emily 43:17

There are some people in my house that don't watch Stranger Things because it's scary.

Dani 43:21

Yeah.

Emily 43:22

So I sort of have to find time.

Ashley 43:24

Yeah.

Dani 43:25

Anyway, Stranger Things.

Ashley 43:26

Stranger Things. I have others. I'm mental filtering right now.

Emily 43:31

Oh, you're- hey, uh-uh, come on. Give me the good stuff.

Dani 43:36

Hey, this is a judgment free zone. It's just the three of us and anybody else on the internet listening.

Ashley 43:42

Anybody else.

Dani 43:43

I'm kidding.

Emily 43:44

It's okay if it's on Showtime you know what I'm saying?

Ashley 43:44

Yeah. I just finished just the series. Handmaid's Tale was the series.

Dani 43:51

Oh.

Emily 43:51

God, yes.

Ashley 43:52

Yeah, just finished. Stranger Things. I watch funny things too, but they're not coming to my mind right now. That's just not where my brain is.

Dani 44:00

That's fine.

Ashley 44:01

I tend to re-watch How I Met Your Mother every now and again.

Dani 44:05

Is that like your feel-good?

Ashley 44:07

Sometimes so is Schitts Creek. Like those are just kind of my feel-good shows where I turn to often to kind of get into the newer seasons. But sometimes I like to rewatch. I like to go back and re-watch some. There's just some really great shows that you can just re-watch over and over. I also love scary movies. I have a master's in communication where I did my thesis on horror films. So I also like to watch scary movies. More of the psychology side of things.

Dani 44:40

Excuse me. I'm gonna cover my ears. Continue.

Ashley 44:42

That was all.

Emily 44:44

Can I make a scary Christmas movie recommendation to you if you are so inclined?

Ashley 44:48

Maybe.

Emily 44:49

It's called Anna and the Apocalypse.

Ashley 44:51

That sounds familiar.

Emily 44:52

It's a musical and it's British, and there are zombies.

Ashley 44:56

Okay, I'm here for that. Okay.

Emily 44:58

It's really good.

Dani 45:00

Christmas British zombies. Very niche. Horror.

Emily 45:04

Musical.

Dani 45:05

Okay.

Ashley 45:06

Maybe.

Dani 45:08

Don't answer Emily right now. Just think about it.

Ashley 45:13

I will. Yeah.

Dani 45:14

Ashley and I are side-eyeing.

Emily 45:16

Fine, whatever. Okay. Moving on.

Dani 45:19

Anyway, Emily.

Ashley 45:20

Books too, just you know, I have tons of different books. I feel like a lot of it's centered around work stuff.

Dani 45:26

Yeah.

Ashley 45:26

But yeah, I like to listen to books. But again, it's all more like nonfiction, work-related types of books.

Dani 45:36

That is okay.

Ashley 45:37

It's OK That You're Not OK. A great book.

Dani 45:40

Oh.

Ashley 45:40

Mommy Rage is another really good book.

Emily 45:44

Yes.

Ashley 45:44

But I'm also trying to like be intentional with how we're exploring things today and the resources that I kind of offer into this space. So It's OK That You're Not OK, I think, is a really great book for people.

Dani 45:58

Great. We'll throw a link in the show notes.

Ashley 46:00

Yeah.

Dani 46:01

To those great suggestions. Is it my turn, Emily? Is that why you're looking at me?

Emily 46:05

I'll go next. What's your best parenting hack?

Dani 46:08

That's working for you. Let's acknowledge.

Emily 46:10

Right. What's working right now?

Dani 46:12

Like today? Because we know that it's gonna change.

Emily 46:15

Kids are squirrely and unpredictable. Like what works today will not work tomorrow. Why?

Ashley 46:21

That's a great question. I feel compelled to maybe not answer it with like what we're talking about, if that's okay.

Dani 46:30

Totally.

Emily 46:31

Yeah.

Dani 46:31

That's all right. Emily, let's move on.

Emily 46:34

You ask your radical question.

Dani 46:36

This is a great time to acknowledge that like you never have to answer questions that people ask.

Ashley 46:42

Yeah.

Dani 46:42

Like every question. That's okay.

Ashley 46:44

But like parenting and like siblings, I would say rituals of connection. If I kind of spin the question maybe in a different way, is that okay to do?

Dani 46:52

This is your episode. You got the mic.

Ashley 46:54

Yeah, just I would say for siblings, creating rituals of connection can be really special and ways that they can honor their grief and normalize their experience. And give them a voice for that. Yeah.

Dani 47:09

That's great. Thank you.

Ashley 47:11

Yeah.

Dani 47:12

Okay. How are you going to show yourself a little radical love today?

Ashley 47:16

Ooh.

Dani 47:16

Radical- people get a little thrown off by that. I threw that in the question. I like the word, okay?

Ashley 47:20

Yeah.

Dani 47:21

Anything's radical.

Ashley 47:22

Yeah. Radical acceptance, radical love. Yeah. Radical love. I think being here and being able to share my story. I think just being able to talk about Harper in this kind of a way. And I think that is a way of showing myself some radical love. Yeah.

Dani 47:39

That is radical.

Emily 47:40

I love it when we get to be a part of the radical love.

Ashley 47:43

Totally. Yeah. And maybe another coffee, we'll see.

Dani 47:48

Ah! Next level. Emily, did you just hit your mic?

Emily 47:51

Yeah, I absolutely did just hit my mic. Sorry, that's my bad.

Dani 47:54

Somebody's getting a little too radical.

Emily 47:56

Woo!

Dani 47:56

Somebody needs to put their coffee cup down.

Emily 47:58

I've had too much coffee. I'm a little jumpy.

Ashley 48:00

Yeah.

Emily 48:00

No. Okay. I know that you are a horror aficionado, but for a moment, we're gonna do sci-fi.

Ashley 48:07

Okay.

Emily 48:08

You are going to jump into a time machine. What is one thing that today you would go back and tell you when you needed to hear the thing the most? Also, what kind of time machine?

Dani 48:20

Follow-up question. Is it a DeLorean or a TARDIS? We're keeping track. No pressure.

Ashley 48:25

DeLorean.

Emily 48:26

I mean, it could be a stone on a hill.

Dani 48:29

Oh, it could be like Outlander.

Emily 48:31

There are all kinds of time machines.

Dani 48:36

We should take a poll on the internet. How are you traveling through time? DeLorean, stone, TARDIS. We will definitely not judge. Anyway.

Ashley 48:47

So two time frames kind of surface.

Dani 48:51

Okay.

Ashley 48:51

I think just in my childhood, I would just give my childhood self a really, really big hug and say, like, we're doing it. I think right after Harper died, I would probably give myself another really big hug and say that you continued to survive and you continue to get to know who you are every day.

Emily 49:13

Yeah. That's good stuff.

Dani 49:15

I like asking this one.

Ashley 49:16

Well, thanks for allowing me to honor both of those because very different timelines.

Dani 49:20

Uh-huh. This is the very first time that a guest has spoken to themselves in two different time periods.

Ashley 49:27

Oh.

Emily 49:27

But you can do that. It's your time machine. Go where you want.

Dani 49:31

You're in charge. Okay, Emily, very last question. Well, second last question. But this is your favorite, one of your favorite ones. So take it away.

Emily 49:40

How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, ice, no ice, flavor, no flavor?

Dani 49:45

How are you staying hydrated?

Emily 49:46

Are you staying hydrated? And if so, how?

Ashley 49:49

So another good question. If you could see, I have like all these water bottles sitting around me.

Emily 49:54

Like, I have a problem.

Dani 49:55

They're everywhere.

Ashley 49:57

So I like a little flavor if I can in my water, but it has to be very little. So, like a fruit or something, I don't like it overpowering because then that feels like too much. I do love me some sparkling water. Because I also I don't- I drink water and coffee. That's pretty much what I drink. So I do drink a lot of water to counteract when I do have coffee. But sparkling water, again, subtle flavor, and then ice. So I'm very particular.

Dani 50:26

Okay. Go on.

Ashley 50:28

So I like room temperature water usually just because I feel like I can drink it more, I guess. I don't know.

Dani 50:33

Okay.

Ashley 50:33

But ice, I liked cubed ice. I like like small bite-sized type of ice.

Emily 50:39

Yes. Like what comes out of that like big ice machine with like the giant scoop.

Ashley 50:44

So as long as it's not watery, which sounds so bad when describing ice.

Emily 50:50

You know how it's made, right?

Dani 50:52

How do you hate your ice? I don't know, watery.

Ashley 50:55

So that sounds so funny, but you know, sometimes this is bringing something in that maybe I should sit with outside of the space. But you know, ice that doesn't melt right away, but like it hangs around. But also if you wanted to eat it, like maybe accidentally bite it or something like that, it's not gonna hurt your mouth. Does that even- that sound so ridiculous. So these are those moments out loud where I say it out loud and then I'm just like, what was that?

Emily 51:22

That makes sense to me because I've had dentists say–

Ashley 51:25

Yeah, don't chew ice.

Dani 51:26

Yeah, but you know what? There's a taco place in Washington where I'm from that has the best ice.

Ashley 51:32

Yeah.

Dani 51:33

And they're little pieces, and it's almost like it's airier, kind of. It's not a giant- so see, I see you, right?

Ashley 51:40

Okay, but I could have described it as airy and not less watery. Airy.

Dani 51:45

Less of uh, I don't know, what it's made of, but it's fine. I was following, I knew what you meant. I assumed I knew what you meant. We're on the same page.

Ashley 51:55

Awesome.

Dani 51:55

Nobody's judging you. And if they're judging, turn off the podcast. Accepting only. Okay. That's what we do around here. Ashley, if anybody is interested in connecting with you, would you like anybody to connect with you? Would you like to just leave this episode here with without, you know, dropping your email in the show notes or um...

Emily 52:17

Like don't call us, we'll call you?

Dani 52:19

There's no wrong answer. We've had lots of guests like answer differently, so.

Ashley 52:23

I mean, I think I would be humbled if somebody wanted to reach out. So we could probably share it somewhere. So if people felt compelled to reach out for anything with kind of what we talked about today, or if you know you want to share your story totally.

Dani 52:37

Okay. We'll drop your email address.

Ashley 52:38

Yeah.

Emily 52:39

In the show notes?

Ashley 52:40

That works.

Dani 52:41

Cool. We'll drop it in the show notes. If you want to get in touch with Ashley, you can do that. Emily, would you like to take us out?

Emily 52:47

Ooh, I would love to. It's my favorite part. Okay. Um, you are a w- I'm gonna cry. Wow. Okay.

Dani 52:55

Oh, uh oh.

Emily 52:56

You are a very wise spaceholder. When I watch you hold space for yourself and hold boundaries that you want to hold and share what you need to share. I want to be like you when I grow up. Thank you so much for sharing your story and for sharing the wisdom with which you continue to live it.

Dani 53:16

Thanks, Ash.

Ashley 53:17

Thank you.

Dani 53:19

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.