I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

KARA KUSHNIR - I AM ONE Birth Trauma and Postpartum OCD Survivor, Therapist and Change Maker

• Dani Giddens & Emily Jankowski • Episode 55

Share episode

Send us a text

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the incredible Kara Kushnir! Seriously, she is impressive. Kara is a perinatal mental health certified licensed clinical social worker who’s impactful support of the perinatal population is not only felt through her extensive involvement with PSI, but also through the skilled support she provides for families in her local community of Bergen County, New Jersey. We’ll chat all about HG, OCD, PTSD, seeking help without a diagnosis, dismantling misinformation, and having empowering conversations with kids about mental health - just to name a few. This entire episode was such a joy to record. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Kara!

Mentioned on today's episode:

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Connect by PSI - Download PSI's New App!
Apple Version
Android Version

Visit PSI's website: https://www.postpartum.net
Find free resources & info on certification, training, and other incredible programs!

Call or text 'HELP' to the PSI Helpline: 1-800-944-4773
Not feeling like yourself? Looking for some support? You never need a diagnosis to ask for help.

National Maternal Mental Health Hotline (U.S. only): 1-833-852-6262
Free and confidential Hotline for parents, providers & support people in English and Spanish.

Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S. & Canada): 988
Free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for p...

Dani:

Welcome to the I Am One podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with the incredible Kara Kushnir. Seriously, she is impressive. Kara is a perinatal mental health certified, licensed clinical social worker whose impactful support of the perinatal population is not only felt through her extensive involvement with PSI, but also through the skilled support she provides for families in her local community of Bergen County, New Jersey. We'll chat all about HG, OCD, PTSD, seeking help without a diagnosis, dismantling misinformation, and having empowering conversations with kids about mental health. Just to name a few. This entire episode was such a joy to record. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Kara.

Dani:

Kara, welcome to the podcast studio! We are so thrilled to be sitting down with you for an hour of calm, quiet conversation or something, I don't know, it doesn't have to be calm. It could be rowdy. I'm not sure. Uh, we are here to talk about all the things perinatal mental health related, talk about you, and um, yeah, what you're up to today to support folks in the perinatal period. So we're excited to jump in. Shall we do that?

Kara:

Yeah, I'm stoked. Let's do it.

Emily:

The water is warm. Let's go!

Dani:

Sploosh. Okay, Kara. Can you give us a little bit of a brief introduction to who you are?

Kara:

Sure. So my name is Kara Kushnir. I am a licensed clinical social worker and a PMHC based in New Jersey, North Jersey to be specific, like 45 minutes outside of New York City. I am a mom of one, and I am an identical twin sister, um, as well as a disability advocate. I have a younger sibling who's autistic, and I do a lot of work both in the perinatal community as a therapist, as well as working with kids and parents, and I do a lot of advocacy work as well. And I'm just really excited to talk about this. I, you know, got into this because of lived experience, and I think it's a nice opportunity to talk about that, like, synchronicity of personal, professional, which happens to a lot of us in this space.

Emily:

It really does, yeah. Like the number of folks who volunteer for PSI who are like, I am a professional in some capacity, and also I have lived experience, very high. There's a lot of crossover.

Dani:

Kara's a twin? I didn't know that. That's cool.

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

That's exciting.

Kara:

She's just as quirky and creative as me with her handle. She's delve into therapy. If you ever want to look into her, her last name's Delventhal. Yeah.

Dani:

Oh, uh two therapists?

Kara:

Yeah, she's LCSW. She's a PMHC too. She's just a little bit more infertility focused.

Dani:

Wait a second. Have you ever attended the PSI conference together?

Kara:

We have not, but our hope is to do so when it's back on the East Coast. So we'll see what happens.

Dani:

Okay. That is so cool.

Emily:

This is amazing. I'm like picturing all kinds of like, I'm like, so... one of you had found PSI and then you were like, come on, let's go! Like, I don't-

Dani:

Who did it first? Let's keep track.

Kara:

I found PSI first.

Dani:

Okay, cool.

Kara:

I'm the OG.

Emily:

You're number one!

Dani:

Let the record show. Also, the last hard-hitting question of this entire episode. Just kidding. Um, are you older or younger?

Kara:

I'm one minute younger. I am, and I was the NICU baby. But I was the only girl in the NICU, and they were like really rooting for me as a result. So I have, like, I have fighter energy all through and through. Yeah.

Dani:

Oh, I like that. Very cool. Oh my gosh. Well, we've learned all kinds of things already.

Kara:

Yeah.

Emily:

Nice.

Dani:

It's great.

Emily:

Okay, let's talk about what role perinatal mental health conditions played in your life personally, like you said, and sort of led you into the professional.

Kara:

Yeah. So I actually, in my career I've worked in so many different spaces, which I think is like the sort of commonality in social work. But I, in my work in healthcare, transitioned to working more in pediatrics and schools. And in schools, of course, there are a lot of people in the perinatal period, a lot of people trying to conceive, and also just parents in general. And I happened to have a lot of colleagues who were going through postpartum. We had like 13 maternity leaves at one point in my school district at one time, and a lot of friends going through the IVF process, and just a lot of loss, and a lot of navigating return to work. And I remember just my office became like this cone of silence where people would come down and just tell me everything that was happening to them. And I remember thinking, A: why was there no coursework about this in my master's program? Like this was never talked about. And B: kept thinking, well, like, why is nobody talking about this now so outwardly? So I got really curious about it. I was already doing private practice part-time. And I ended up during that time sort of considering how I wanted to do things and expand. And I'd intentionally brought someone on my team who was a perinatal provider because I thought that was important. So she was like the OG on my team doing this work.

Dani:

Oh, cool.

Kara:

Fast forward, I get pregnant during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Dani:

Oh!

Emily:

Fun.

Kara:

So yeah, that was pretty crazy. And I actually conceived my son about uh two months- or a month and a half or so after my grandfather passed away. So there was like a lot of pressure on me of like, oh, like, we just lost someone and now you're having a baby. I had a horrific pregnancy journey um with, like, some borderline HG situation going on.

Dani:

Oh no.

Kara:

That was rough. And then um, unfortunately, my district superintendent would not give me any accommodations due to COVID, despite OB letters and psychiatry letters saying, like, this is really not healthy for her. So I felt like the writing was on the wall. And I at three months pregnant gave my notice and said I have to turn my private practice into my full-time gig and sink or swim, figure it out. So I did, fortunately, but it was sort of like such an eye-opener for me of what people go through. I ended up, unfortunately, having a pretty traumatic birth experience as well, and then some medical complications. My son had a short NICU stay. And in my postpartum journey, um, I think I had perinatal anxiety, but I continued on. I ended up having postpartum OCD, PTSD, um, and anxiety. So those were sort of the pieces of my puzzle that kind of came together. And then in my journey with that, I decided later on, after I was in a better place, I wanted to go and get trained by PSI. I wanted to become a PMHC and I wanted to make this a part of the work. I always thought it was important just because I felt if we supported families from the beginning, it would improve the outcomes for children too, so it kind of was a synchronicity in the PEDs work. But now it was very personal to me to want to help people go through things that I had gone through.

Dani:

Wow.

Emily:

Yeah. Okay. So hold on. My brain is synthesizing.

Dani:

I was thinking about maybe asking Kara if she wants to go in a time machine and go back in time a little bit about... during your pregnancy, you said you experienced HG. I was, first of all, I was wondering if you could tell people what that means. What does that mean?

Kara:

So HG is hyperemesis gravidarum. I was never formally diagnosed with it, because the medical system was so challenging to access because of the pandemic that, like, I couldn't really get the care. But it was kind of like, yeah, we think that's what's happening. I was prescribed diclegis, um, was told to take the combo of like the Unisom, B6 that people do. Made a little bit of a difference. But I mean, I was vomiting every single day, multiple times a day, and/or barely eating to avoid vomiting for the vast majority of my pregnancy. So it was pretty rough. Um, it did improve towards the end in the third trimester. It really, as I was getting closer, I did start to feel a little bit better, but I was pretty sick throughout the entirety of my pregnancy. And I didn't know what it was and then it had a name actually until in my postpartum. I saw um, I think it's Amy Schumer. She did like a HBO documentary about having HG. And I was like, oh, that's what that is, because I didn't know.

Dani:

Shout out to Amy Schumer.

Kara:

Mm-hmm.

Emily:

Fellow Towson University grad.

Dani:

Oh, for real?

Emily:

For real.

Dani:

Oh, okay. Um so yeah, that must have been really difficult. Did that kind of this is a leading question. Did that mess with your mental health at all? I mean, just thinking like, were you wondering, is there something I'm doing wrong? Like, am I...

Kara:

I was, like, terrified, and I think I was terrified because I was like, oh, I'm supposed to puke in a public bathroom during a pandemic. So, like, that like fueled the fire on the anxiety and then the OCD stuff that developed later. It was just- it made so much sense to me when I look back. And that was actually why I tried to go on having an accommodation. I mean, I was requesting to work from home doing report writing one or two days a week from school and was told no. And it was like, well, this is a mitigation of her getting sick, like you don't want her you know, to get COVID. So, and also just the- it was a weird time. Like, I think with the HG, I was also like deciding, like, you know, how do I handle this? Where can I go? What am I allowed to do? Because because I was terrified of if I'm gonna get sick, I'm, like, obviously gonna have to take off a mask and what's gonna happen. So there was just so much fear in the uncertainty and the unknown of that time. But yeah, it really also just took a lot of the joy out of it for me of like, I wanna enjoy this, and people who have the experience of like, I love being pregnant. And I was like, what do you mean?

Dani:

This is pretty terrible, actually.

Kara:

Yes, could not access that. Yeah.

Dani:

Oh, wow, that's rough.

Emily:

Okay, so there's suspected hyperemesis, there's birth trauma, and there's maybe some pre-existing anxiety.

Kara:

Yes, definitely.

Emily:

How did the OCD show up for you?

Kara:

Yeah. So interestingly, so actually my twin sister is the one that was like, I think you have OCD when I was postpartum, because she was coming over to help me, and I was ferociously logging every ounce of milk that baby was eating. I was checking the baby monitor. I was an owlet mom and checking his pulse socks all the time.

Dani:

Oh, you're like, I'm a scientist.

Kara:

Yes, literally, like I have to make sure. And then I would become irritable when people would try to do it of like, you're not gonna do it right, you're gonna mess it up. Like there was a lot of overprotectiveness that came in that vein when she would try to help. And I had a lot of my own OCD around my own health, um, which in some senses I think was probably valid. I had a lot going on medically in my postpartum journey, but um, like constantly checking my incision for my C-section, constantly checking temperature, breathing, my own pulse ox. There was so much stuff going on medically of checking my own stuff, and it wasn't identified, unfortunately, until the third therapist that I saw postpartum.

Dani:

Oh.

Kara:

Which makes sense now. Now, as someone who does that work, I mean, we know that it takes an average of nine to ten years for somebody to actually get an OCD diagnosis, because it's so grossly misdiagnosed.

Dani:

Wow. Okay, Kara, you mentioned it taking three therapists to finally getting- Okay, after you had your child, had you already been seeing a therapist before that, and you were like, okay, well, obviously I'm just gonna keep seeing my same therapist, and then... how did the trying different therapists unfold?

Kara:

Totally. So I had seen somebody during my pregnancy. It was great because I was really seeing her, specifically more so for a grief perspective, just because of my grandfather having passed. I was like really doing that work and she had no perinatal training, and she actually said, I think you should see somebody who does perinatal work just to be, you know, having that support. So she recommended it. And I went to somebody who, said that they did perinatal work, but at the time not knowing the differentiation of training, I think that it was more like, I have lived experience, so I'm gonna say I do perinatal work, which is a big problem, in my clinical opinion. So my first experience with therapy was somebody who was doing a ton of self-disclosure and almost hijacking the session to be about her.

Dani:

Oh.

Kara:

And I identified it very quickly and said, I don't think this is a good fit. So I ended up uh requesting another therapist who was really lovely, but just didn't have the OCD training to really see that. And that's around the time when my sister was like, you're not getting something that you need. Like, we need to find somebody else. So, I ended up going to somebody that had a little bit more specialization in this and had both of those pieces. And that was really helpful to me. And I really was able to also, having done some OCD work prior, finally admit that that was what was happening. I did not want to admit it. And then I did, and I realized what I could do. And I kind of in conjunction with my therapist, did some exposure therapy for myself, like some ERP. And I also did some cognitive behavioral therapy to work on that, and that really helped me. And then I had to find another therapist for the trauma part, because that was not their wheelhouse. So I was kind of, like an example of a lot of people probably would have stopped and they wouldn't have gotten the help, which is part of the challenge. I needed something really specialized, and it's why I went on to do everything that I do. I now treat everything that I had, because of the hardship I had in finding somebody that did these things.

Dani:

How did your sister know to say, I don't think you're getting what you need, and kind of nudge you to go look for somebody who specialized in OCD? Was she seeing things like behaviors repeated? And she's like, Okay, this is not like pre-baby Kara, not that we're the same person, we evolve into new Kara, you know, or whatever. But was she noticing things?

Kara:

Yeah, for sure. So it was so interesting, and I think this is something that I find fascinating now as a clinician and also just as a survivor, is she was even like, is this PTSD or is this OCD? Because there was such hypervigilance, there was such- the checking, but also like I couldn't sleep. And I also had medical complications that were making it hard for me to sleep in the very beginning, I had really significant postpartum anemia. So, like, it can actually affect the way you breathe. And so I would literally feel like I couldn't breathe and I would go to sleep and I would startle wake, because my body thought I wasn't getting enough oxygen. So I was, like, literally not sleeping. And so she ended up going to the hospital with me four days postpartum to get checked out, because I was like, I have a pulmonary embolism. This is something- I was like convinced I was gonna die.

Dani:

Yeah. I've Googled it. Don't worry. I'm not sleeping, and I Googled it. I figured it out.

Kara:

Exactly, exactly 100%. So I was like, let me go figure this out with them. Um, but it took my sister went to the hospital with me, and she literally had to put a hand on me while I was in the ER and hooked up to the monitors, and she said, I'm watching you sleep, I promise you're not gonna die. I can see it on the monitor, I can see you, I won't let anything happen to you. And then I let myself sleep. But I literally had to have someone with me, and she was like, this is not normal. She's like, and it's not just medical and it's not just like, it's in your head. She's like, you went through something horrific.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

And she, I think her hardship was watching that, and then seeing the constant checking, and the Googling, and the researching, and the reassurance seeking, a lot of that going on of like, do you think I'm gonna be okay? What do you think this is? But also just the activation. When I went into the emergency room to be checked out, I immediately smelled that, like, Lysol smell and I had a panic attack. And it was like full on and she was like, yeah, you went through it and you need help. And she realized I wasn't getting what I needed. So she, in that point, because I kept not sleeping, I kept doing the checking, and she's like, you're not getting better. Something has to change. And she, I think I had the fortune of like, I have a twin sister who is a therapist. So even if she wasn't a perinatal provider at that time, she had the wherewithal to notice it and she was comfortable telling me. But it changed my life. Like, if she hadn't said it, nobody else would have noticed it. Everybody else was kind of like, you'll be okay, it's just hard. And she was like, no, this is not normal. You don't deserve this. You already went through it in pregnancy. It ends here. And like that was radical.

Dani:

This is absolutely getting in the way, and it doesn't have to be this hard.

Kara:

Yep.

Emily:

I love that.

Dani:

Oh, I keep tearing up!

Emily:

The idea that, like, you've already gone through a thing, like it doesn't have to keep being this hard, especially in the context of anxiety and PTSD and OCD, because those are things that make us very uncomfortable, but are not by themselves life-threatening.

Kara:

Right.

Emily:

Right. They make us hyper-vigilant, or make us very hard workers, or make us operate in a certain way that could be just seen as quirky, or might even be praised, depending on what it is and how it's manifesting. Like, being a hyper-vigilant parent looks good on paper until you look at how the parent is suffering.

Kara:

Yes.

Emily:

How much is it getting in the way? Well, a lot because I'm not operating the same way. I've changed everything about how I do my things throughout the day.

Kara:

Yep.

Dani:

Okay. So you finally got connected to, well, you were connected to a couple different therapists that helped you for- you know, in different ways.

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

How long did it take before you were, I don't know, feeling a little bit like things weren't in the way so much, you know?

Kara:

I actually have a photo of myself holding my son when he's about eight or nine months old. And I recall, I actually remember taking the picture and looking at it. And I said to my mom, I was like, I want to keep this because, like, this is where I'm starting to feel like I know I'm not myself, but I feel better. It took time. Um, and I think that to that point, I'm really grateful. And I think it's so important for people listening to hear: it's okay to go to different providers, it's okay to find the right person, and it's okay to use different providers for different reasons. Like, I worked with somebody very specifically on OCD, and then I needed to go to somebody very specifically who did EMDR with me. And like, and that's okay. Like, you have to find what you need for that specific experience you have. But it did take time. And it's something that I also think is important. Like, I have had clients that come to me and they're like nine months postpartum and they're just starting to realize it, and they're like, oh, I have to be good by a year, right? Because that's postpartum. And I'm like, no, no, no. Like, you're postpartum for life, and also this experience that you have has never been addressed. So it's still postpartum, it's just a complication that nobody picked up on or gave you the support you deserved. You're gonna be okay. Like, but it I think that it's- there's such a like, uh, going back to the OCD can be so so detrimental of like, I look so good on paper. I'm such a good parent. It really fuels that perfectionist, like pieces of people that I certainly have.

Emily:

Yep!

Kara:

It can really like be something you're like, I can't abandon that. It also affected me in my breastfeeding journey. I was like, I have to. Like I was like- and I was pumping, which was so hard because then I could measure everything. So there was such a... it added to that too.

Dani:

Solely pumping and then giving a bottle or...?

Kara:

I had started to try to do a combination of breastfeeding, bottle feeding, and formula feeding, and mostly because my son was in the NICU, so it was really tricky.

Dani:

Yeah.

Kara:

I remember just having such a hard time with it, and I was kind of like, I think I'm just gonna pump. But it was a hundred percent, I decided to pump because I could track. That's exactly what happened. And I retrospectively can see that now. It made me feel better. I will know exactly how much he's eating, and I have to make sure because he was in the NICU. So there was a lot of that pressure. But then, when I realized how being hooked up to the pump was so impactful to my mental health in my journey, because of the way I was producing, and just the challenges I was having, and the fear I had of letting people in my house to even help me, like a lactation consultant, because it was still COVID times.

Emily:

Right.

Kara:

I basically was like, I don't know what to do. And it was my husband actually saying to me, like, I really need you to give yourself permission to not say that, like, you failed or like that you have to stop, but, like, you did give him breast milk and it's fine, and you're more important than how he's being fed. Like, this doesn't matter. And I was like, You're right. But it was a huge loss, and it wasn't just a loss of the experience of like this is what I'm supposed to do, it was like a loss of control. Like I had to accept that I was gonna know how much he was eating if it was formula and it was fine, but like, but also it it was something that I had to recognize of oh, this was another example of OCD had taken over and I had to finally let it stop having the wheel on something.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

It was something I had to come to terms with. It made me feel like a failure. And I think that perfectionist part got really activated by that.

Emily:

Yes. So perfectionism, you're saying it's a problem.

Kara:

Yeah, no, for sure. And it's so hard when people go into it with this, I think, mindset, that perfectionist mindset of, like, going into like planning. It's gonna be this way, all the way down to like, I'm gonna have this chair in the nursery, to like I'm going to breastfeed this way. And really what I always talk about with parents is it's expectations. That's the thief of joy. The expectations steal our joy.

Emily:

Yes. Yeah, because you know, we in an effort to be, let's say, perfect, we want to be really informed about labor and delivery. And so then we learn all the things and go, okay, based on my value system, which is like an important self-awareness to have. Like, based on what I want, I'm gonna say, I want this and I'm not okay with that, and I don't want this intervention, but I do want that intervention, or whatever. And nature and the universe and that baby have their own set of plans.

Dani:

Like, excuse me, uh, I have something to say about that. And then your whole birth plan that's you know, three to five pages long is out the window.

Kara:

Yep.

Dani:

And all of these things that you've spent time thinking about, how do I want this to be? It's like, man.

Emily:

And what does it mean about me?

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

I'm thinking about parenting. You think it's gonna go a certain way. You think your birth's gonna go a certain way, you think you're gonna parent a certain way, you think your life's gonna go a certain way. It's like this lesson that, as humans, we probably are reminded of over and over again, whether we choose to be able to hear it and receive it or not. I didn't want to hear it when I was becoming a parent. I was like, nope, I'm gonna pick how everything's gonna go. Mm-mm.

Kara:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

A little humbled. You know, like we're- we- we just have to roll with it, you know?

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

Mm-hmm. I love that what you just said too about the birth plan, I feel like that is such a big piece of it. And like, I mean, I had to let go of expectations at 37, almost 38 weeks, when they were like, I really think that you should potentially end up having a C-section. And I was kind of like, why? And I didn't want to. I'm very glad I did in the end. My son was very large, and I think that it would have ended up probably that way anyway. And that's sort of what my doctor said, she said, based on your level of anxiety, I would not want you to have to go through that and then end up this way. And that might happen based on different pieces of my anatomy. And I have some some spinal issues, and I was like, yeah, I get it. So it was kind of like a safer thing. And even though it was a traumatic experience, I through, I think definitely through doing the work of EMDR for me, I have a very different experience. Something I often will share when I talk about my birth is that I went from feeling like my body failed me, and like I didn't get the vaginal delivery that I wanted, and like there were so many pieces that I, you know, what if I had done this? Or... now the first thing that comes to mind when I think of my birth is I remember the doctor holding my son up over the drapes, and I was like really going through it. It was so hard for me. But I made sure that I was the first person to say happy birthday to him. And that was what I said to him, the first thing I said, happy birthday, baby boy. And I made sure I said it. And I think about that now, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, your story isn't somebody who like, you know, you didn't do it and you failed. Your story is, like, you literally willingly laid down on a table and got cut open so that you could birth that baby and still got that out in all of your pain. Like, you're a warrior. And like that's what I want other people to feel too.

Dani:

Oh my gosh.

Emily:

You basically just answered the question I was just gonna ask, more or less, which is... Well, okay, it's a two-part question. We're gonna get real personal. Are you done having kids? And the reason I'm asking that is because how do you think about that birth experience today? And how has it sort of been reframed through all of the like therapy work that you have done?

Kara:

Yeah, that's a great question. Um, so my question is I don't know. Um, it's like TBD right now.

Dani:

Yeah.

Kara:

I think we talk about it all the time. We're like, do we want to? Do we not want to? I always thought I'd have two, and there is a part of me that thinks I might just be a one and won W-O-N parent. And like I say that to people sometimes. But I think that I just don't know and it has nothing to do actually with that, and that's what's so cool. My decision around family planning is much more about my son's needs. I have a neuro spicy kid, so like what's he gonna need?

Dani:

Same.

Kara:

Yeah, so like what's that gonna mean? And then like also my own like bandwidth of, like, I have a lot going on professionally, and like I'm kind of, like, okay with where my life is. So, and you know, what do we want to do? But it's cool because I, when I first had my son, I remember telling my husband, I'm never doing this again. Like, I never want to have another baby. And I can 100% say now, because of the work I was able to do, that that is not a factor in deciding. Like, yeah, like, it's gonna be hard. And I'm kind of like, do I wanna, like, go through pregnancy again? That might be really tough. If I end up being really sick again, and it's scary from a medical stance of like there is unknown, but the actual birth experience and what I've done to work on it does not scare me. I will say part of the work that I did in addition to psychotherapy, EMDR, was peer support. I talked to other parents who went through this, and I also followed really helpful social media accounts. I think that, like, social media gets a bad rap because there are some things out there that are not helpful and comparison can be a thief of joy. But like, like I follow the birth trauma mama, and, like, that was super helpful. And, like, I ended up doing my EMDR training with Kaylee, actually. Like she was in my cohort, which is like the coolest synchronicity ever.

Emily:

That's cool.

Kara:

So that was super fun. But those, like, people that I have met along the way have really helped. And then I think also part of the work that I did around healing was really kind of like going back to the story, like doing changing the story, like working on what is my story in this. But it's not like BS. Like it's not like I'm like, yeah, like you're a warrior because you did that. I'm like, no, like I'm like, that's hard. Like, and it's something that I think also providing that care has been transformative. It's like been meaning-making for me and the grief of the journey that I expected. Like, it is so satisfying to have someone who comes in front of me. And I'm not- I'm a big believer, as I said earlier, in finding people who are truly trained. Like, I wanted to be trained because my philosophy is like, yeah, like my experience is my experience. Like, that can inform me, it should not lead me in the care.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

I think it helps me empathize and attune in a different way. But I really enjoy being able to now, you know, companion people on their healing journey. And I have a couple of clients now that I started working with who were like, I'll never have another baby, and they're pregnant right now and they're not scared. And I'm like, that is like... whether I have more children or not, like, that was the goal. Like, it can happen and we can get you there. And like that is massive to me.

Emily:

That is so cool.

Dani:

That was a big question, Emily. I know a lot of people, it's like, uh, I had a lot of questions about that too. You know, there's this social expectation. We have our own expectations of how we think our life is gonna go.

Emily:

Or sometimes you expect to be able to have that second kid, and then something happens that makes it not possible.

Dani:

Or you realize things about yourself that you didn't know five years ago and you know, are hopefully able to go, all right, maybe that might not work for us. And like that's super okay. And I hope that that is more like accepted now. I'm hearing more people talk about that. Like, we've got a bunch of friends, some of our previous podcast guests too have talked about that. That just going with like what feels right and what works well for you, whether that's what you predicted as a meteorologist or not. Anyway, here I am with weird analogies, but

Kara:

I love that. You're you're right though. Like it's- you don't have to have another child to heal from birth trauma. Like it does not have to be the case whatsoever. I completely agree with you. Like, there's no you can't plan this stuff, and...

Dani:

Yeah.

Kara:

The surrender is the healing.

Dani:

Ooh. Dang, Kara. I'm gonna write that down. I just got goosebumps. I keep tearing up, getting goosebumps, and then I'm like, dang, that's a quote.

Kara:

Thank you. I got little nuggets I sprinkle it when I can, you know.

Dani:

Yeah, I like that.

Emily:

It's like planting seeds that can grow for all of us later, yeah. Because, you know, like it's that predicting, like you want to predict. Well, 20-year-old Kara who thought, I'm gonna have two kids, is not today, Kara.

Kara:

Yeah.

Emily:

Who has the professional experience, and the personal experience, and, you know, the therapy work that you've done to be more in tune.

Dani:

I mean, 20-year-old Kara arguably was probably sleeping much more.

Kara:

Oh, yes. 20-year-old Kara was a vastly different human.

Dani:

She was super rested and thought she could do- that she might be really interested in, you know, not sleeping a lot.

Emily:

Came home from class and took a nap, like

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

Rude.

Kara:

100%.

Emily:

Same. Uh...

Dani:

So we have talked about you being connected to PSI. When did you get- when did you do your perinatal mental health certification?

Kara:

I think I did my training towards the end of 2021.

Dani:

Cool.

Kara:

Or, possibly the beginning of 2022. Um, So I've been doing this work for a few years with the training specifically, otherwise, my work with parents predated it.

Dani:

Cool. So, speaking of PSI, can you talk to us a little bit about, um, how you've been connected to PSI? Like...

Emily:

What would you say you do here?

Dani:

Yeah, was perinatal mental health certification your, like, toe in the water? Tell us more. Go on.

Kara:

Nope, no. So the clinician that I hired before I had my son, who was- she was a PMHC, and I was like, what does that mean, when I like interviewed her. And then she told me about it, and I was like, oh, and that's how I learned about PSI, and then I started researching it, and then I started sharing about it to all of those friends and colleagues I had who were in it. I was like, you guys should know about this. Look at these free support groups, look at this information. Hey, like, friend who's a psychiatrist, you should, like, learn about this if you have people of reproductive age. And I just kind of started sharing it. And then I like drank the Kool-Aid and was like, I have to go get trained and I want to do this. Um-

Dani:

It's not poisonous!

Kara:

It is the best. It is, and I really, really loved the training. And it was really cool actually, because I felt like doing the training, and then when I took the test, and I, like, I know a lot of people will post on social media in the PMHC world like the picture of themselves holding, like, that they passed their PMHC the little tests. I did that and like that was such a big moment for me of, like, look at how far you've come, and it was so cool. So that was a big deal for me in that journey. And then from there, um, I got involved in being a Climb leader. So this was my third year of leading team Bergen for The Climb.

Dani:

Ooh.

Kara:

Erin, who is the therapist that's on my team, that is the first PMHC that was on our team, is my co-Climb leader. So she works with me.

Emily:

Yes!

Kara:

And then from there, I, during that time, probably early on when I started doing Climb work, I had a friend and colleague from another part of Jersey that I connected with on social media who was a PMHC, and she was on the board for PSI New Jersey. So she's like, I really think you should look into this, like, think you'd be really good to be on the board one day. So I explored it and I started out as education and training chair uh for New Jersey, and then I switched into being the chair for PSI New Jersey. So, I'm currently finishing up my term as chair for New Jersey right now.

Dani:

Excellent. Nice work, Kara! Oh my gosh. Connecting all the people with all the... all the resources and doing all the things. Oh yeah. For anybody listening, did your event in Bergen, your Climb event, already happen this year or is it happening in the fall?

Kara:

It already happened we were on June 21st, I want to say. And it was great. So, super exciting, it was our third year, still best year. We, like, aim every single year to, like, beat the year before. It's kind of like a fun exercise for us.

Dani:

Let me just say that you totally- you guys totally rocked it. So if anybody is interested in, like, what is this Climb event thing that Kara's talking about? We'll put a link in the show notes to your team's social media account so people can go check it out and see. Maybe they might want to get involved, if you're leading an event next year, or if they might want to attend or something, they could see what it's like.

Kara:

Yeah, we fully plan to keep doing it as long as we can. So, I love it.

Emily:

Yay!

Dani:

Awesome.

Emily:

It's so powerful to, like, gather people together who have varied experiences and varied skill sets, but like, all care about the same cause.

Kara:

Yep.

Emily:

You know, like...

Kara:

It's so powerful.

Emily:

The librarian, and the preschool teacher, and the therapist and the pelvic floor physical therap- like, all together, just being like, okay, and what else can we do?

Dani:

And your neighbor who just had a baby.

Emily:

Right.

Dani:

And you.

Kara:

Yep.

Emily:

How are you really? Nice baby... How are you? You know, like...

Kara:

Yep. No, it's so fun. Like, I love doing the Climb. I think that it's something that is an easy way for people to get introduced to PSI and their community, to just like go and to connect to those resources. And that's really what I love about it, is every year someone comes up to me and they're like, this was so helpful. I just talked to this person. I didn't know I could see a pelvic floor physical therapist. I had no idea this resource was out there, and, like, that's the whole point.

Dani:

I didn't even know a pelvic floor physical therapist was a thing until eight years postpartum. So that would have been, like, very helpful. So, nice job connecting all the dots in your community at your Climb event.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

That's awesome.

Kara:

Thanks.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Yeah. Emily, do you have any other burning questions... Slash Kara, is there anything that we should chat about that we haven't talked about? Or... Well, I love sharing my story in the sense of people understanding, and I think this is something that I've heard other guests on your podcast talk about and acknowledge in different ways too. Like, it's not just postpartum depression, and also it doesn't have to just be one diagnosis. I think people feel like they have to fit there. It's really funny, I just, I do a lot of continuing ed and I just created a training that I've been giving, and this is like where my advocacy comes in. I, like, love getting my foot in the door in the hospital system. So I, like, have created trainings and linked in with other orgs. So they'll pull me in to do the training, and I'm like, I will come for free. You do not have to pay me, just let me talk to you, because I just want to be able to get in. Yes.

Kara:

And I created a training on how to actually use the Edinburgh postnatal depression scale in the hospital and what to actually look for, because it's half the time done incorrectly, which is part of the struggle.

Dani:

Interesting.

Kara:

Yeah, it is. And what I've learned and I've shared with a lot of providers is that, and this is also starting to emerge, is that a lot of the times perinatal anxiety, whether it's in pregnancy and postpartum, is probably more common than postpartum depression. We don't really think about that a lot. And I think the stats will typically show that, in the research coming forward, as it continues to be published, but it's missed so much more often than it should be. And I think that is because, like we talked about expectations. People are like, you're a new mom, you're a new dad, of course you're anxious. And we're like, uh, but that's not this. And I think that's what's really tricky. And also just people are so afraid to be honest because they don't know what's going to happen. So the way in which we assess and talk to people matters. But I really encourage people to, A: if they are a provider, to be thoughtful about that assessment process and to make it safe. Like, tell them why you're asking and what will happen and, like, be honest because I've had people say to me, I'm really afraid to answer these questions. And I said, here's what's gonna happen. If you, let's say you tell me you want to hurt yourself, we're gonna talk about what you're thinking about and how I can get you support, because I want you to be okay. My goal is not to tear you apart from your child and have you never see them again. And I want to be very intentional about telling you that, and just kind of helping them hear that is really critical. I don't make false promises because I don't know what's gonna happen, but I can promise you that I'm always gonna tell you the truth and what I can do for you. So just to have that safety and relationship. And it doesn't take a long time. I think that sometimes there's this urgency to rush from a provider perspective of like, oh, I have to get through the assessment, but it takes an extra five seconds to explain it or to get it right. And I think that's really important. And then for the patient side of it, just to know like people really do want to help you. They're not out to get you, and it can be scary. I also want to acknowledge that though, from a place of privilege, there's so much work to be done. And I, through the work I actually got to do with PSI New Jersey, I did some focus groups this year. We had, like, a huge grant project we worked on. We did a lot of work in the BIPOC community, acknowledging that there is a valid fear of how to be honest if you're a woman of color. And so, how do we also dismantle that work? And that's something I'm super passionate about, whether it's trauma and how that can be misrepresented or recognized because of the biases and stereotypes we have, how we miss anxiety because you're just a scared new mom. Just kind of being able to be a little bit more intentional and thoughtful about how we're looking at this, and empowering people to be honest so that they can get the help they deserve. Because I think it's about 75% of people with a perignatal mental health condition don't get diagnosed. They don't get treatment.

Dani:

Oh, well, you're looking at two. You're talking to two.

Kara:

Yeah. So it's really problematic.

Dani:

Right.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Like when you're talking about people being afraid to be open and honest with you, I think that this is just such a common story. And I love that you are so intentional about what you're saying to patients, not just reading through the questions, but just something as little as starting out the sentence with: it's actually really common for a lot of parents at this stage to be feeling XYZ. How's sleep been going for you? Or, you know, how are you, you know, whatever. Leading with just confirmation that people are not alone, it just opens up the door, I think, for open conversation and dialogue between a provider and a and a parent. And I love that you are doing that and acknowledging you can't just ask the questions on the scale and move on real quick. It's just- it's not supporting parents in the way that they needed and deserve. So I'm just here to pat you on your back! Thank you. Thank you for doing that. From somebody who was undiagnosed and like very afraid to say the scary things that were going on inside, right?

Emily:

I'm having a thought.

Dani:

Oh!

Emily:

It's brand new.

Dani:

Uh-oh.

Emily:

It's brand new in my head. This could be dangerous. I have no idea where we're going here.

Dani:

Oh no, I'm buckling up.

Emily:

So as a clinician, your definition of an experience with diagnosis is probably different than the assumptions that a lay person like me will make about what it means to have a diagnosis. Like they don't give you a card that you carry around in your wallet, right?

Kara:

You might not even know you have one. Yeah.

Emily:

And you also don't necessarily, like, keep that diagnosis forever because, I mean, you could be diagnosed as having something that resolves, which a lot of the things that we talk about on this podcast are things that resolve, right? I wonder what we can do? What can we do about it? Let's solve the world's problems, Kara. What can we do?

Kara:

Well, okay, so the first thing I would say is you don't need a diagnosis to get help. So, like it doesn't matter.

Dani:

Yes.

Emily:

Right.

Kara:

Really important. And so if you're not sure and you're like, I don't think I have that, or no one directly says to you that's what you have, that doesn't negate your ability or allowance to seek treatment. Like, and when I say treatment, I'm talking psychotherapy, some sort of counseling, peer support, going to a group, being able to talk to support people and access resources because it's not just about therapy. It could be anything from you have a postpartum doula, you go to your, you know, your church, or your temple, or your wherever you go for spiritual practice, and there's people who support you there. Like, anything that feels supportive can be a part of your recovery journey.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

But honestly, anxiety, depression, no matter what it's called, if you do not feel like yourself beyond I just had a baby and I'm learning to do this, but I feel I don't feel safe in my body. I don't feel like I can trust my mind. I can't stop thinking about something. My sleep is horrific, not because I'm tired, but because I just can't sleep.

Emily:

Or I'm super overwhelmed.

Kara:

Yeah, you're totally overwhelmed. Like, that's enough to say something's probably not right. And whether or not you are able to access or you ever seek that diagnosis at that time of your life, it doesn't mean you don't deserve support. It doesn't matter what it looks like, you know?

Dani:

Exactly. Period.

Emily:

It's like sometimes it's helpful, because you can name the thing or name the symptom. Like, I'm feeling this way, and you know, this thing is acting up or whatever, for me. But yeah, it's like it really isn't necessary. And I mean, from a billing perspective, it's like sometimes the diagnosis isn't the most important thing. When you're filling out the form and sending it off to insurance, like...

Kara:

Yeah, we just gotta find something that works. And I think that's really important is, like, it doesn't matter to us either. Like, some people don't know what their diagnoses are. I only know because I asked. I was like, what are you diagnosing me with? I was like, what's what- and I had the wherewithal to ask, and I was like, this is what I think, and it was confirmed. So it was kind of like, okay. But a really good provider and finding a good provider means finding somebody who looks at you as a person and your symptoms as a sort of constellation of what's going on with you. Like it's not, you are not your diagnosis, and your label is not like something that defines your journey and parenthood. So it shouldn't be that that's what we're relying on, but it can be a tool of naming your experience and feeling validated that it's real, but it shouldn't define your journey. So it's something that we need to be nuanced about, for sure.

Dani:

So, like, your diagnosis doesn't define your journey, but it can inform, like, what to do.

Kara:

Absolutely. Yeah, it's real what you're going through. It can validate the experience and give you guidance on how to proceed.

Dani:

Yeah.

Kara:

It does not predict the rest of the journey, the middle, the ending. It's just part of the beginning. That's all people need to think about sometimes.

Dani:

Aw, yeah.

Emily:

It's a little bit like clothes. Like you don't put on a pair of pants and wear them every day for the rest of your life. Like, you wear them today because they work today. And tomorrow the weather might be different, and other conditions might be different, and your body might be different, and so those pants don't work. You need something else.

Kara:

Yeah, and same thing with the treatment. It's like whatever therapy you need, whatever medication you need, which, like, by the way, I absolutely took medication when I was postpartum. I needed it. And I was very fortunate because I was in the field, that I literally called my psychiatrist from the hospital and said, I am not okay. We need to have an appointment. And she called something in for me. Like it's because I had access to that, but, like, I knew that it was okay. And I've needed medication off and on in my life, like since I was in middle school for different things. So I had experience with it. But, like, the stigma of that is so important too. Of that doesn't have to be forever either. If you need it, use it. It's a tool in the toolbox. That's all.

Dani:

I have to give a quick shout out real fast to PSI's perinatal consultation program.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Quick little PSA. If your doctor or provider, whatever, is saying anything like you shouldn't be taking this medicine, get a second opinion, give them PSI's psych consult program... number?

Emily:

The website, yeah.

Dani:

Because for free, providers can check in with another totally qualified provider just to brainstorm and talk.

Emily:

Yeah, like an expert in the field. It could be anything from is X safe during pregnancy or postpartum to I have a very nuanced, like you were saying, I'm treating the whole person and I'm seeing lots of different component parts here. What's the best course of treatment?

Dani:

I'm just gonna throw that in the show notes. If anybody's listening, because Kara, you are absolutely right. Meds are okay.

Kara:

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you don't have to take medication if it's not right for you, you don't need it, for sure. We're not saying you have to, but absolutely don't discount it. I think that is like the most important thing. It's not a bad thing. There's such a fear of it. Again, there's so much expectation around how we're supposed to do this, but medication isn't bad. There, it's... yeah.

Dani:

There's expectation. There's also misinformation, too. There are a lot of things that are okay to have, while you're breastfeeding, while you're pregnant.

Emily:

We don't think about, let's say, like an SSRI or an ADHD stimulant or I don't know, a mood stabilizer of any other variety, right? We don't think about those medications the same way that we think about medications that you take when you have a headache. You observe the headache and you go, there are tools. Yes, medication's one of them. Sometimes you need to drink water, sometimes you need to go sit in a quiet place, or like, you know, remove yourself from a hot room and go cool off. We don't think about it like, I'm taking this and it's going to permanently change me, but somehow we get it convoluted that like...

Dani:

Who's we?

Emily:

We- me, me. If you have to stay ahead of that headache and it's gonna come back, I'm looking at my watch and I'm going, okay, cool. Like, I have taken this ibuprofen. I know that it's gonna wear off at X time, and I need to take another so that the headache doesn't come back or so that the pain in my knee doesn't come back. We know it metabolizes out. Like it is a temporary solution. It is not a permanent solution. It's just part, like we are so...

Dani:

Emily's fired up.

Kara:

You're giving me a really good idea for a training that I've been thinking about doing.

Dani:

Ooh.

Emily:

Go on.

Kara:

So my undergrad was in history, and I did a lot with women's studies. And I will tell you that a lot of the demonization of medication and psychotherapy and psychiatry, especially in women, is rooted in patriarchal BS and just misogyny. So it's not shocking

Dani:

Oh, damn, we're getting into it.

Kara:

It's not shocking.

Emily:

Shots fired.

Kara:

Yeah. So it's just problematic, the system is problematic. I mean, it's the same thing- it's totally different, but goes back to the same thing of trust in providers, and that's a part of the trust in providers too. The American obstetrical practices that we uphold and some of the beginning, uh, the origins of obstetrical care in America are rooted in slavery. Slaves were practiced on for doctors to learn how to provide care. So, of course, that's something that's long-lasting that we need to be aware of. And so...

Emily:

And the move away from mid-wifery is deeply anti-Semitic. Like...

Kara:

Yeah, there's a lot of intersectionality in these spaces that we can't ignore and historical roots. We're just still working on dismantling misinformation, like you said, Dani, and also you have to understand why it's there to be able to fight it. But it is really problematic. I mean, I think about that too. When I was in undergrad, I took a class called witchcraft in the middle ages, and we talked about basically why women were accused of witchcraft – because it was a way to control them from a sexual perspective. Like, that was a huge part of it.

Emily:

I want to take that class. Where'd you go to school?

Dani:

That's it. We're going back, we're going back to school. Sorry. Sorry, Kara. Go ahead.

Kara:

That's fine. My undergrad was at Marist College. So I had an amazing professor, Janine Peterson. She was wonderful. I'm still in contact with her, but she was my professor for that class. And it was great.

Dani:

We're getting real nerdy today. I love this. No, I mean, I mean that in the best way.

Kara:

Right, yeah. Knowledge is power. Yeah.

Emily:

Yes. Okay. Well, before we get too far down any more rabbit holes, we should probably lightning round and ask you the real pressing questions.

Kara:

I love that. Let's do it.

Dani:

I wasn't done talking about witchcraft and, like, dismantling misinformation. Whatever. Okay. Um, okay, Kara, are you ready for a lightning round?

Kara:

Yeah, let's do it.

Dani:

Okay. Besides this podcast, do you have any other favorite podcasts that you would like to suggest to our listeners?

Kara:

Yeah. So two that I really like. I really love, if you are a birth trauma survivor, I love The Birth Trauma Mama's podcast. It's great. And then I also love, it's a hyper local podcast for Jersey folks, but it's great. It's called Jess Press Play. And she's actually a perinatal mental health survivor of postpartum OCD and birth trauma. And she invites small business owners on and she talks about just like, because she's a small business owner, she talks about small biz, she talks about things that bring her joy, but she also talks a lot about mental health on her podcast. And I think it's nice because it's not expected, so it kind of like sneaks in there, but she's a big advocate for perinatal mental health.

Dani:

Ooh.

Emily:

That's cool.

Dani:

Incredible. Great suggestions.

Emily:

Okay. Are you binge watching, reading, listening to anything really good? Like, what do I need to add to the queue?

Kara:

I'm so boring, I, like, find whatever's on Netflix whenever I have a chance to watch something mindless. So it's great. I'm watching Arcane on Netflix right now with my husband, it's based on a video game. So it's kind of like he wanted to watch it, so let's do it. And but it is, it is pretty intense, so it's good. I also, oh, shout out to, I binge watched The Pitt. I loved The Pitt so much, and I can't wait for that to come back. My favorite read lately, that's a heavy one, but an amazing book if you are interested in trauma at all, is What My Bones Know by Stephanie Foo. I love that book.

Dani:

Somebody else recently suggested that.

Emily:

Yes.

Kara:

She's great.

Dani:

Yeah, I read the synopsis and I was like...

Kara:

Yeah, it's a heavy one, but I actually have recommended it to other clients. Including, I had a male client that read it and he was like a 50-year-old ex-cop, and he was like, this was incredible. This like changed my life, and I was shocked. So I just highly recommend it to people.

Dani:

I'm looking to see if I actually already put this in my Audible queue.

Emily:

You're like, uh oh, I already have it.

Dani:

I have a follow-up throwback question that was not on the list of questions. Are you like a book in your hand or book in your ear kind of?

Kara:

I used to love to read in my hand and now I only audible because it is the only way that reading happens. Yeah.

Dani:

Also, uh another follow-up question that was not on the list of questions, because apparently that's what I'm doing right now. Uh, what speed do you listen to your books at?

Kara:

Oh my God, I love that question. 1.1 to 1.2.

Dani:

Okay, that's great!

Emily:

I love that question! Like, we need to ask everyone.

Dani:

I love that. 1.2 is like a sweet spot.

Kara:

I think it is too. I think it's our brains work the same, you know?

Dani:

I think Kara and I are vibing right now. Sorry, Emily. She's over here, like... what would you say? Oh my gosh, that could be like a t-shirt. What is your audible, uh, what's your audiobook listening speed? I don't know. We'll talk about it later. Anyway, because you're like 1.5 or higher.

Emily:

It depends on the book. Okay, I need to get like real sci-fi nerdy for a minute.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

When I listen to Frank Herbert's Dune, 1.75. Too slow, let's go! Like it was, it's so slow.

Kara:

That's fair.

Dani:

It's like you're selling hot dogs at a side of a stadium. 1.75 all day long!

Emily:

Yes. Now there are other books that are already kind of fast. Like the reader is delivering it fast. And so like it varies quite a bit, but I would say like 1.5 is my average. Not to make it about me. Kara, what's your favorite best parenting hack?

Kara:

Yeah. Oh, so I was gonna say before we move on for books, I'm gonna shamelessly plug because I think I want to share it as a resource. I actually wrote a children's book. It is not on Audible. You have to buy the hard copy, but you can read it to your kids. And it's called Mama's Thoughts. And it is available on Amazon, but it's literally the story of what moms tell themselves when they have negative or scary thoughts told through the eyes of baby, so that it's easy to digest. And in the back are resources, including PSI resources, stuff about medication. So I just love to plug that as like if you are a reader or you're just like, I want to read to my kids, but I'm so tired of reading the same bed type story over and over again. It's great.

Dani:

Yes.

Kara:

And you can use it to talk about perinatal mental health disorders with older kids and older siblings as a starting point.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

I love that. It's a book for all ages.

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

And we will put a link to that in the show notes, okay? Everybody go buy one.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Because Kara is awesome and that book sounds amazing. I love that.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

Thank you. We're doing a fundraiser for PSI actually through the end of July, and we're gonna do it again. I often sell it and I use it as a fundraiser for PSI, as like something to do.

Dani:

Great. Okay.

Emily:

That is so cool.

Dani:

Do we need to put a specific link in the show notes or?

Kara:

Nope.

Dani:

Just a link to it on Amazon?

Kara:

Yep, yep. We donate proceeds all the time from the sales of the book.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

Cool.

Dani:

Great. I just want to say one other thing. I love books that give parents, like, the words to say. Sometimes it's hard to know how to talk about things with kids, and I love that you did this. So

Kara:

Thank you.

Dani:

Nice job. Everybody, go buy that book.

Emily:

Speaking of your book, is it your parenting hack or do you have another one?

Kara:

Uh, my parenting hack, and it's something I talk about a lot, is that parenting is a lot like surfing. There is no balance all the time. You are constantly getting knocked over by waves and learning how to swim parallel to shore, or float in the riptide when it gets really rough. So don't look for balance. Just learn how to surf and do your best in the water.

Dani:

Oh my gosh. Dang, you're hitting us with an analogy.

Kara:

I got a lot. This is how my brain works. I got lots of metaphors and analogies. I'm all about that. Yeah, that's my brain.

Dani:

Kara, me too.

Kara:

I know. We're gonna be like new best friends. It's gonna happen.

Dani:

I feel very bonded. I just say random, you know, like Emily probably scratches her head all the time when I start off my sentence with, you know what this is like?

Kara:

Uh-huh.

Dani:

And then it's like, she probably is like-

Emily:

I disagree.

Dani:

I don't know where we're going here, but I'm here for it.

Emily:

Metaphor is very helpful.

Kara:

Yeah.

Emily:

Because there are times where, like, just explaining the theory or the understanding of a thing isn't enough. Like, you need– I don't know– something that feels more tangible.

Kara:

Yeah. Experience.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Everybody wears pants, you know?

Kara:

True.

Emily:

Sort of.

Dani:

Some people don't, but anyway, whatever. Okay, I digress. Okay. Uh, Kara, what is one way that you'll show yourself a little radical love today?

Kara:

Um, I will say no to doing something that doesn't work for me today. I actually took something off my schedule because it was just too much. And I was like, yeah, like we're not doing that today. So I said no.

Dani:

Boom! Isn't that like such a gift?

Kara:

Yep. Mm-hmm. And a practice for us recovering people pleasers. We have to learn how to say no.

Dani:

It's so hard. Oh my gosh. It doesn't mean anything like bad about it, doesn't say anything bad about you as a person if you need to have a healthy boundary. So do it.

Kara:

Yeah, and you don't have to say sorry. You could just be like, thanks so much for understanding that I can't do it. I really appreciate it. Yeah.

Dani:

Right.

Emily:

Mm-hmm. I'm gonna write that down.

Dani:

Yeah, that's perfect. Okay. Emily, get in a time machine. Ask Kara if she wants to get in a time machine. Come on. Let's get in a time machine.

Emily:

I'm gonna get in to the TARDIS... Just kidding. Okay, that's a very niche time machine reference to a science fiction show. Anyway, um, what is one thing that you wish that you could go back in time and say to pre-recovery you? Where do we go? What do you say?

Kara:

I love that question. In my EMDR journey, I actually did this type of work, where I like I went back and like kind of talked to her as like part of the way that I've engaged with that process. And I have clients do this now. So what I would tell myself is you are doing so much better than you think you are, and you're going to be okay. And I think that that's like something that I've had the ability to do myself. One of the things I have clients do, and I encourage all parents to do this, is two things. If you're in your prenatal journey and you're right before birth, I have parents go out and buy a birthday card, but not to the baby, but to themselves, and they write about all the things they're scared of and like what's gonna happen, so that they get to give it to themselves as like this you're born into this parent role now and, like, to look back on of like how far they've come in the journey. And then I also will have parents, when they're towards the end of their work with me as like a closure activity, something we're working on of, like, putting their hand on their heart, going back, and like having a meeting with that part of them. And then having a conversation, and, like, what do they notice about you, what do you notice about them, so that you can have that dialogue. Because that part can always be with you and it can be a support of like look we learned something and we went through something hard. It doesn't have to be a bad thing of like I don't want to connect to you, but it can be something that there can be mutual gratitude and respect, that you can now move forward together. So it's a really cool process that I like to think about. So when you asked me that, that's what I thought about.

Emily:

Cool.

Dani:

I love that. Those are great activities.

Emily:

Yeah.

Kara:

Thanks.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

You're doing better than you think you are.

Kara:

You are, yeah. You're gonna be okay.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Kara, how do you take your water?

Kara:

Um, preferably iced, and I really like raspberry seltzer. That is like... when I need to drink water, I will go for a raspberry seltzer. Yeah.

Dani:

Okay. Any specific, well, I don't know if we can talk about brands, but we don't have to.

Kara:

I mean, whatever's on sale works just fine for me.

Dani:

Cool.

Kara:

I will say my beverage of choice is coffee. I am like a coffee addict, and I will absolutely shout out Poor City Roasters, which is my local coffee place that literally caffeinates me forever. And they're like the nicest people. So I will shout them out if anybody's local to northern New Jersey.

Emily:

Are they a Climb sponsor yet?

Kara:

They are.

Dani:

Oh!

Kara:

They donate, but as like raffle items, but they did a Climb event with us, they do the Caffeinate to Climb event with us leading up to it. They always pick like one of their kids' birthdays, is like the day they do it in June. But they donate, we raised $750 with them this year. It was a lot of money that we raised. Yeah.

Dani:

You know what? We're putting their link in the show notes. What's up?

Kara:

Yeah, they're the best.

Dani:

Poor City Roasters.

Kara:

Yeah, Franklin Lakes, New Jersey.

Emily:

Cool.

Dani:

Kara, if anybody wants to get a hold of you, um...

Emily:

555. Just kidding.

Dani:

5555. Uh, for anybody, like, that grew up in the 90s, hey! Those aren't real phone numbers. Do you want people to get a hold of you? Should they check out your website? Are you on social media? Tell us.

Kara:

Yeah. So I have a couple of social media accounts people can follow. If they want to follow me specifically, I am Taking Kara. It's K-A-R-A dot Humans. So takingkara.humans.

Dani:

I love that.

Kara:

And then my practice's Instagram is a work of heart underscore counseling on Instagram. And we are a group therapy practice based in North Jersey with two locations with 15 providers, and we serve women, children, parents, teens. We say we are from cradle to college and beyond. We're, like, there for that family system, so...

Dani:

That's catchy.

Kara:

Thank you. And we are aworkofheartcounseling.com if people want to find our website to work with us. And we're providers licensed in Jersey, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, and Florida.

Dani:

Oh, okay, so if you're in any of those states. And you are taking new clients?

Kara:

Yeah.

Dani:

Okay, great. As of the summer of 2025, you heard it here. Check Kara's business out, A Work of Heart Counseling.

Kara:

Yeah, it's hard work because it's heart work.

Dani:

Oh, Kara, you just have too many great lines!

Emily:

Boom!

Kara:

I just- this is like, that was what started it. I had a boss, a principal in a school, who literally said that to me once about the work we were doing because I was like so concerned about a kid and it stuck with me forever. And then I was like, that's what I'm going with when I open a practice one day. Yeah.

Dani:

It's like silver platter, right there, hello? Yeah.

Emily:

Thank you.

Dani:

Well, great. I think that about wraps it up for today. This was so lovely talking to you, Kara. Emily, would you like to take us out?

Emily:

I would love to. Kara, it has been a pleasure talking to you about yourself and your journey. It's always a pleasure to brainstorm Climb things with you. Let's be coffee friends and hang out in real life. Road trip! Thank you for sharing your story and for talking about all of the hard things and for dropping a lot of great, like, sound bite– it's like six words or less. We can all remember these things and just keep them in our lives and in our days. So thank you so much.

Kara:

Thanks for having me, guys.

Dani:

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
Head Shot

Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host