I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

KAROLINA LAZAROV - I AM ONE Medically Gaslit Birth Trauma Survivor

• Episode 53

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On today’s episode, we’re sitting down for an I AM ONE Podcast “first”! It’s our first-ever trans-continental conversation (recorded in Poland & the United States) with Karolina Lazarov, who is a yep - you guessed it - a Polish-born Perinatal Mental Health-Certified therapist, now living in the United States who is connecting the dots between parents, providers & resources on MORE than one continent. Wow! As if the title didn’t give it away, we will, in fact, chat all about how medical gaslighting impacted Karolina’s childbirth experience, how she found support and how she’s finding ways to connect folks here and abroad to the vital the resources they need. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Karolina!

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Dani:

Welcome to the I Am One podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down for an I Am One It's transcontinental conversation and the United States with Karolina it, a Polish-born perinatal mental health certified therapist who is connecting the dots between providers, and resources on Pretty incredible. As if the title didn't give it away, we will in fact chat all about how medical gaslighting impacted Karolina's childbirth how she's finding ways to connect folks here and abroad to the vital resources that they need. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy Karolina. Karolina, welcome to the podcast studio! We are absolutely thrilled to be sitting here with you today. And the stars have aligned because we've managed to schedule all the kids are home, out of We are on different continents, we Look at us. I mean, that in itself is quite the feat. But we're not here to talk about logistics. We're here to talk about you. So thanks for being here.

Karolina:

Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very, very thrilled to be a part of it.

Dani:

How many hours ahead of us are you?

Karolina:

Just six.

Dani:

Oh, just like a quick little six hours.

Karolina:

Yeah, it's not dark yet.

Dani:

I bet people are wondering where you are, but, you know, we'll

Emily:

Stay tuned.

Dani:

Yeah. Can you give us a little introduction to who you are?

Karolina:

Sure. So my name is Karolina Lazarov. I am a licensed professional counselor, licensed and

Dani:

Yay!

Karolina:

I am also a volunteer coordinator for PSI in my home

Emily:

Yay!

Karolina:

This is where I come from. Yes, yes, mystery revealed. So, you know, I came to this country when I was around 26, my journey. So it was just, you know, I came for a moment, and then here we are. It was 2008. Yes. So see, this is part of how I discovered PSI. Yes, I came here to get more experience in the whole mental maternal mental health psychology. Because you know, back in the day there was not much about But tell you more about it later. But yes, you know, my heart is still in Poland, my know, being a coordinator just you know, a wider range of me. So I'm really honored to represent PSI on a global level. But you know, so yeah, so I live in Philly now, suburbs of in a beautiful little town, uh, Bryn That's where my is. That reminds me of home, you know, it's like a small little So it's really cozy. If you ever visit, just come to Bryn Mawr. It's cute. I live with my husband with my two little boys. So, one is almost two and one is ten.

Dani:

Oh wow.

Karolina:

Why? You probably wonder, you know, there's eight-year difference. That's my story, that's why I'm here, you know.

Dani:

Yeah, tell us!

Karolina:

Birth trauma needs time to heal. And it took me eight years, but I'll tell you a super years. So when everyone was asking me what do I want for my it birthday– not to reveal my age.

Dani:

Yeah, we don't need to talk about it. It's okay.

Karolina:

It was now or never, you know? Nobody knows.

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

But I said this is now or never. And when everyone asked me, like, what would you want for I said, Well, a baby, because I've been waiting for so I so I wanted a baby. And guess when my baby was born.

Dani & Emily:

On your birthday?

Karolina:

He waited till 1 a.m. to be born on my birthday. So I don't have birthday anymore.

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Emily:

Is this baby number two?

Karolina:

Yes, so that's my second son. So, yes, I have a birth trauma story and I have such a good example of, like, past doesn't future. I'm an example of, like, only because it happened once mean again. So yeah, that's my little introduction to my life.

Emily:

Excellent. Okay, so birth trauma is part of your story.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

So what brought you here to the US? Were you like, I'm going to grad school, I'm going to a Like

Karolina:

Sure. So I actually graduated in psychology back in Poland. So I graduated one of the top universities, and my thesis my head and my mentor, my greatest was really brilliant woman that specialized and still she's like a professor nowadays, in So it was my very first beginning, when I actually got to when, you know, no one was talking it. It was one of the universities actually in Poland when classes about it, and I had the to actually get involved in So I created my thesis based on prenatal attachment. It was lovely. For two years, I actually worked with pregnant women in the pregnancy trying to see if their differences are gonna be a postpartum.

Dani:

Ooh, that's nerdy, and I'm really into it.

Karolina:

Yeah, it was so nerdy. I love that.

Emily:

What did you learn?

Karolina:

Oh my gosh, I learned so much, you know. Then the thesis- not to brag about it.

Dani:

Go ahead. This is your episode.

Karolina:

Yeah, this is my moment to shine. Yes, it was great because it was the beginning of this whole thing, you know. The Edinburgh scale was still like, oh, maybe use here and They were looking at me like I'm just like a different in a Because when I came to this hospital, luckily that was a of the neonatology ward, because a pediatrician herself. So I had this little entryway, so they were kind of me you talking about? What postpartum- what are you talking about? You know, so it was a lot of questioning, a lot of weird but I was still doing it. Those moms were also like, why are you asking me if I'm sad? Well, everyone is sad.

Dani:

Right.

Karolina:

Like, what do you mean? Like, yeah, I'm crying, everyone is crying. So, you know, they had no idea. So, anyways, you know, when I graduated, in Poland there perinatal mental health. OBGYNs were just like, uh, just take some pills or just go and cry, I don't know. Very, very dismissed subject.

Emily:

Right.

Karolina:

So I decided to come here to Philly, you know. Why Philly? My sister was here, so it was pretty easy. It wasn't like I picked Philly for no reason. So it was an easy entryway, and I took courses, able the US, obviously. So I went through quite a hiccup of learning who, you know, in college. But that's okay. I refreshed my knowledge, you know, like it was good. And then I found PSI. You know, I found PSI, and then, you know, I really was, like, first reading about it and you know, getting all information. And then when the certification came to place, I And then, you know, a few months ago I decided to be the my website, my Polish website with all the educational about PMAD, and then I started you know, emails for women And I recognize that in Poland we are still in 2008. Oh, okay, maybe 2010, you know, not much has changed. So I figured out that that would be my chance to actually, you know, spread that awareness and do something with the me. So yeah, so that's how I ended up here, that's why I'm here. But as I said, my heart is still in my home country, and I love much bigger on this global level, I'm cooperating with them Like, do you have more materials. What can I translate to my language, you know? Because there's no translation for Polish. So yeah, so that's my little future goal. You know, we'll get to it hopefully one day.

Dani:

We'll check back later on that.

Karolina:

Yeah, of course.

Dani:

But let's go back in time a little bit. Can you tell us– You alluded to having some birth trauma. So if you're up for it, can you tell us the role that perinatal disorders played in your life We know professionally, like, how

Karolina:

So you know, I'm not that angry anymore, you know, but anger was part of that journey. But when I talk about it, all these emotions are still coming up, you know? Because even though I passed my birth trauma, when you Like, oh.

Emily:

Yes.

Karolina:

You know, I was one of these women.

Emily:

I have a quick question before we dive in.

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily:

When these feelings come up when you're retelling the story; for

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

but I don't feel like I'm on it anymore.

Karolina:

That's exactly what it is.

Emily:

Okay.

Karolina:

You know, it's almost like you're looking at the story from a distance, right? Like that third person perspective, as we say in therapy, you're just observing your story, you tell people the story not in it, right? So there's this detachment of, like, there's no emotional on Absolutely, absolutely, you know. So, yeah, so let's dive into it. First or second? First, first, ten years ago. So we're talking 10 years ago, which I still feel like we made progress there, but you know, here and there, right?

Dani:

2015 was pre-perinatal mental health certification. It was, you know.

Karolina:

Yes, yes. And you know, and at that time, my English wasn't that good, my verbal skills were not that good, and I clearly was not as loud as I am now. You know, if that happened yesterday, I mean, I think that my story would have been so different. But 10 years ago, you know, things were so different, and And it was the first baby too, so you kind of were like, uh, what's normal, what's not normal, right?

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

So what happened basically, I had this little not because of the timing. They were really prolonging my labor. So, you know, there was a nurse's shift change, there was a were just, like, dragging it and it.

Dani:

Had you been induced?

Karolina:

No, it was a natural, you know, but they also sent me home not yet, not yet. And you know, again, remember I mentioned my mother, this is not how it's supposed to be. Tell them this, tell them that. You know? No, no, nobody listened. So eventually at some point I was like, I am not leaving. So now I'll be sitting here, I am not going home for the So they let me stay, but I didn't know that they're gonna let me stay, prolonging this still even more. So that was one of their things, you know.

Dani:

Not being listened to?

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The other thing was the epidural, so you know, there was a that, you know. They didn't fix what they messed up, they were just keeping me in my little happy zone, so I wouldn't complain and I would

Emily:

Did the epidural not take?

Karolina:

Uh, it did take, but on one side of my body, and the other And I was telling them it doesn't feel right, something is I in a weird way, and they were just giving me more, you

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

Other stuff to make me happy, you know. That's what I'm saying. So I remember being in a goofy mode, like kind of like, oh my gosh, this is great. I'm here, you know. So not really, you know, attachment with reality and stuff.

Emily:

That one that makes you loopy, right? Like, so in addition to the epidural, you were getting... God, what is that? I don't even remember.

Karolina:

Fentanyl, yes.

Emily:

Yes.

Karolina:

So they were giving me that, basically, the happy drug, To just not be really aware, which now I understand because you know, ten years later- eight, my son is almost two, another everything in details because he actually wanted to tell So he actually told me what they're giving and what dose calm my nerves. But that's eight years later. But at that time, you know, they were just pumping me with epidural and kind of fix it when I telling them something right. I was just not heard at all. I had no voice, I had no voice, you know? Which still happens a lot. And you know, I finally gave birth to my son, and everything is great, and then they tell me, okay, get up and sit on And here's where everything started. So they didn't know that I couldn't walk, that I was partially paralyzed, and I collapsed on the wheelchair. So I got injured, they couldn't pick me up. It was three people– my mom, my husband, and that nurse– And um, yeah, and that's when they were like, uh-oh, actually And I'll tell you, you know, so they check MRI, there was Nobody actually knew what happened. Nobody could have explained, but I'll tell you a funny did it came to my room and said, so you know, I didn't do so you knew the risk. And that's my story of medical gaslighting. That's why I said this is medical gaslighting. That is my story. It's not just the birth story, it's just the medical

Emily:

Like he basically yelled at you for doing what the nurse told to

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Right?

Karolina:

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Like, I, you know, this is not on me. Just so, you know, you wanna be tricky, you signed the So, beginning of like, wait, what? Like, why would you even come and say that? Instead of saying, hey, how are you feeling? What's going on? Let me see. I- the first sentence I heard.

Dani:

I just want to let you know that none of this is my fault, and you're not gonna tell me that it's fault.

Karolina:

Yeah, right? And now actually you gave me the idea of check if it was your fault, because now I'm like...

Dani:

Like, why would you otherwise be saying that to me? It's very odd.

Karolina:

Right? Yes. So that was the beginning, you know. And then um, you know, the treatment that I received, you know, post-delivery, with not being able to get up, not being able to take that shower when they tell you, go take a shower, No, I was there for six days. I think it was around six days.

Emily:

Because of the fall?

Karolina:

I couldn't walk. I couldn't get up. My leg, my whole- I mean my hand and stuff, but my leg would not stay straight, it would buckle.

Dani:

Oh wow.

Karolina:

I couldn't lift myself up. So my husband, for like a month, he was lifting me up from a couch, you know? So, you know, and there was a sequence of different events I birth trauma and, basically, being gaslighted, because nurses that came and said, like, come and, you know, stand up, And then I would fall. So I was like, Oh my god, like, what's wrong with me, right? And then I would say, can you help me with, like, the bathroom stuff? And she's like, well, can't you do it yourself? And I was like, well, I can't, you know, and the first most came in, you know, I'm stressed out, crying, I don't know I'm wondering if I'm ever gonna be walking. My husband, who I think had actually, now when I'm looking I his mental health.

Emily:

For sure.

Karolina:

It wasn't really me, it was him. Pacing, biting nails and all that stuff. So if I could diagnose him today, I think I would have, you Not nowadays. So, anyway, so he, finally, he was so stressed out that chair next to me, just sleeping. And then, we're talking middle of the night. And I said, can you please I'm begging you to take the baby for two hours, just so I can put my you know eyes down? Like, he's sleeping. And she said, why is he here? I was like, excuse me? Well, why is he here if he's not helping? Then he may as well sleep at home. And I look at her, and again, today I would have said but please, pretty, please? You know? And she was just, ugh fine, but I'll bring him for next feeding? What- what do you mean, what feeding? I didn't have any supply. Oh, guess what? I've never had a supply because of all the stress, you know. But at that time, like nothing was coming, and and then feeding. So, you know, like, the nurses were mean, the doctors were nobody really was actually wanting me. And, you know, I left this hospital on a wheelchair with a cane that they said, well, we'll give you this cane but you So it was, I'm telling you, now I'm laughing about it it's absurd that, right, like you believe it. If someone told you the story, you'd be like, wait, what?

Emily:

Yeah, wow.

Karolina:

And then that was it. That was it, and then I was, you know, left by myself. Nobody checked on me, nobody said anything, nobody just And actually, no, they said if nothing changes, come back I literally heard that.

Dani:

Six months?!

Karolina:

Yeah. They sent neurologist to assess me, and he's like, yeah, that Like, you cannot bend that knee.

Dani:

That's what I'm saying!

Karolina:

thank you for telling me. And he said, like, you know, just observe it, you know, it, know, PT maybe, but not yet, because you are postpartum, so cannot do PT, right? Come back in six months.

Dani:

So was the partial, like, paralysis or, like, weakness, like, was hard for you to fully extend arm. Was that like a combination of, like, there was like a from the fall? Or I mean, I don't know.

Karolina:

That's why I'm saying it took me eight years because for answers, and I was so afraid to get pregnant and get that Because I'm thinking, well, if that happened once, what if something?

Dani:

Like, maybe.

Emily:

Especially because they didn't- they weren't able to tell Like...

Karolina:

Nope, nope, and nobody said you're gonna be fine next time,

Dani:

Right.

Karolina:

And I knew, and I actually had, you know, I had all of the side effects of, like, labor. So I was really not happy not having epidural, you know, next time, because I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it. So I really wanted to do and have that epidural, and um, you know, nobody was able to tell me like, no, no, you're gonna Like I was really, really afraid that I wouldn't be able to Now, here's the funny thing: if I knew what I know now, I waited eight years. And it took one person, kind, empathetic, supportive doctor, that anesthesiologist that I saw when I had my second son, to actually make me feel that he got this. He said, listen, there is no way. He took a banana and he started peeling banana to show me He's like, see that skin? See that inner part? We're not going to your spine. I don't know what they messed up, but this is what I'm do. And this guy, he was so amazing and so patient with me that okay, I trust you. You know, and my mom, who was sitting there and observing the first doctor and the second doctor, you know, eight years what? I trusted him too. Whereas with the first one, she was like ugh...

Dani:

Like it was just, you know, it was a fast food restaurant. Get in, get out, get to people.

Karolina:

Yep, that actually, you know what, that is funny because Whereas the second one was like the luxury, you know, little restaurant in Italy.

Dani:

This second doctor or anesthesiologist was obviously that possibility of getting another and being sensitive to that and just about it?

Karolina:

Yes, and I did tell him, you know, and I felt heard.

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

For the first time, I felt actually heard, you know, and that's something that I always tell my clients: use your voice. You need to be heard because you know what? If you're not gonna find a doctor that's gonna hear you, find another doctor.

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

Now I know. Now I know, because I found different practice, I went to

Emily:

Same.

Karolina:

Right, see? And that made such a difference, you know.

Emily:

I was a doula for a couple years and had to go back to the and I got sweaty. And I was like, it's not safe here. Like, I mean, uh, you know, because trauma is real. Like...

Karolina:

Absolutely. That's why I was like, mm-mm-mm, I am not doing this again

Dani:

Yep.

Karolina:

You know, so now I know what happened, to answer your They and they kept me on those drugs too long. And then because I was pushing for like 45 minutes, I think side not being put correctly and the pressure I was lower part of my body, that it was due to like a muscle, It's kind of like what I say when people run and your legs I think that's what happened, you know, and nobody was So if maybe that nurse was holding me and be like, okay, let's sit down together. Not like, okay, get up and sit, you know. Like that's okay, you just were in labor for 12 hours.

Dani:

They were just kind of like telling you what to do next and just doing things without kind of, like, talking you through it.

Karolina:

Very sensitive.

Dani:

To how you were feeling and, you know, what your first experience was, and was like, okay, we could do this differently.

Karolina:

Yes. And you know, he heard me and he also gave me such a low dose that I still felt the pain.

Dani:

Like, just making sure?

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah.

Dani:

Did you ask, can I have, like, a little baby dose?

Karolina:

Yep, that's what I said.

Dani:

And he said, absolutely?

Karolina:

Yeah. Because first I asked to not give me drugs at all, just and you cannot do that, why you have to do it. But he also said, I'm gonna give you such a low dose just going into that canal. So you're not gonna really have it. You will, but you won't. And he was like, Are you feeling okay? And actually, one more thing, he came in, like, twice just So he wasn't just like, you know, bye.

Dani:

Well, my job here is done.

Karolina:

Yes he came and checked, and you know, it really takes one So You know, I actually am a proof that yes, one story happened, but the other reversed it. It took me eight years, but I can tell that, you know, you experiences with two different two beautiful boys with

Emily:

Yeah. Okay, so the second birth experience was very different.

Karolina:

Absolutely. It was closure.

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

It was closure to finally have an answer that, A, I wasn't a failure nor my body.

Dani:

It wasn't you.

Karolina:

It wasn't me. They made me feel– through all this six days in the hospital and then you know, going from a doctor to doctor asking for something wrong with me, right? So I felt like a failure, right? And the anxiety that experienced also just kind of like, Like, during that second labor, actually, when I was talking to that second anesthesiologist, it was just gone. It was like, oh my god, this is good. I feel good, I wanna do this, you know? So, yes, it gave me closure and it helped me understand is real and they can really mess your psyche, you know, like they're just fine, and this is you, there's something Not to mention, I didn't have a milk supply. And they also made me believe through this process of, because you're not gonna have a milk supply. And then they would forcefully put that baby- yes!

Dani:

Oh, well, if you're telling me to not stress out, then I guess I just won't stress out. Insert sarcasm here. Rude.

Emily:

Good grief.

Karolina:

But you know what? I'll tell you a very interesting thing. I didn't have a milk supply with my second baby, and I So guess what? It's just my body, it's fine. I came in acceptance, but first time I wasn't in acceptance, right? I was like, oh my god, it's because of stress. I need to calm down, I need to relax, I need to breastfeed.

Dani:

They're telling you that you're not doing something right, Again, all on you.

Karolina:

It's all on me. So it was basically all on me back then.

Dani:

Allegedly.

Karolina:

But you know, hear about perinatal mental health, you know, right? So you would think that my story is like a story of, like, a recipe to postpartum anxiety, postpartum depression, You Your knee buckles, you cannot even walk with your baby and You cannot go for walks with your baby because you cannot You can sit, and then someone needs to come and take your lift you up, someone needs to help you, you know, in the

Dani:

And cook your food and bring it to you and make sure that you're staying hydrated, and...

Karolina:

Yep.

Emily:

How long did that recovery take?

Karolina:

Uh, you know, like three months.

Dani:

One month postpartum?

Karolina:

Yes, one month postpartum. My husband is an athlete, so he kind of was able to train me how to do things with that leg. So he would move my leg. He would just, you know, we would just get up, up and down. My mom took three months off to stay with me.

Dani:

Wow. Shout out to mom. Thanks, mom.

Karolina:

I know, and that's actually what I want to tell you Like, I feel that that support that I got protected me from know. She was there with me. He was there with me, from physical aspect, like training me. Get up and do, and he'd go for walks. We would go to Target with my little cane at nighttime, you We you know. Target nighttime, you know, dates. But my mom told me- I know, funny, right? But we did have the date, you know, me with the cane.

Dani:

Hot date at Target!

Emily:

I mean, that sounds fun.

Karolina:

Very romantic. We still do it. I'm kidding. Like, let's go to Target, honey.

Dani:

Just for old times, you know. Remember?

Karolina:

Let's get that babysitter.

Dani:

Uh-huh.

Karolina:

Really, like, that support system, that village that we're Like, it takes a village. Like, I really, really had that village. And it really took one person. And you know, my mom's being a doctor herself, not a just a doctor, you know, taking care of my kiddo, helping me out, telling me, you're okay. And also, you know, I find myself really privileged because I had a village of other doctors, doctors from my home that telehealth.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

Yes. And would help me, would help me with understanding, with and that support that I'm gonna be okay.

Dani:

I have a language nerd question. Did it feel good to be able to just process in Polish?

Karolina:

Yes.

Dani:

As opposed to trying to find a therapist in the US and then, you

Karolina:

Absolutely. And especially back then, you know, when I still had that know, absolutely.

Dani:

So you could just say, here's what's happening, here's what I'm

Karolina:

Yep. And I'll tell you, I did have a therapist, but I didn't have to search for it. So that's part of my village. My sister, my sister's a therapist herself.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

And she was there with me. So she was, you know, I know it's a family, and you would all that stuff, but that wasn't the She was sitting with me You know how that works. When you think this way, this is what's gonna happen. So, how can we reframe it? How can I help you? What do you need? And I was bombarded with kindness, with support, with and understanding, something that I from those doctor over there In my practice, my OBGYN was late to my six weeks' two hours

Dani:

What?

Karolina:

Yes, and she came telling me why she's late. Then she didn't even really check me. She said, you're okay, you're feeling okay, right? Can you walk? And at that time I was still with my little cane, and even appointment I actually went to that because I felt again invisible. Invisible. So I left and I said thank you. Bye.

Dani:

Thank you. Uh, I'll call you, don't call me.

Karolina:

Yeah, no, don't call me. This is a breakup. This is a true breakup.

Dani:

And for anybody listening that maybe is pregnant or will carry baby you experience this, it's okay to, know, choose another doctor or, just not working and doesn't feel right.

Karolina:

Absolutely.

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

Yes. So you know what? And it's funny because then I say, you know, I'm prone to my second baby, as much as was great, there was, you know, in doctors, right? And because of my milestone age that we're not gonna

Dani:

Were you geriatric?

Karolina:

Yes.

Dani:

Sorry to bring it up.

Karolina:

I feel so geriatric, you know, now. I sweat like a geriatric, you know, I'm there! But anyway, so you know what? I had to be induced, right? So you know how that goes in a geriatric pregnancy, you know. I had to be induced, which I was not opposed because I was unplanned. This one's gonna be scheduled and planned. And you know, that doctor is coming, and it was the day before I actually deliver. So she's coming to the office and she's like, so we have And it was two weeks, two weeks after my due date, and I was supposed to be induced a week before my due date, just in

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

You know, we reserved the room. And I was like, wait, what?

Dani:

Hang on a second. I thought we were, uh, just about done here. I'm ready to wrap it up.

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was supposed to be my last appointment. And you know what she said? No, you got it wrong, honey. And I was like, first, I'm not your honey, and second, I didn't get that wrong, I know when my due date was supposed to be. And she's like, no, no, she's like, no, look, see, we have She came with the paper, and I look at her and I was like, My up. She's letting me go home. That night I ended in the hospital because my baby's not you

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

That was 38 weeks. The baby's not moving, they let me go home. The doctor is like, well, we got the, you know, movements we wanted, da-da-da. The next morning I'm going to my non-stress test, and they were like, yeah, no, you're gonna go and be induced right now. And I was like, wait, what?

Dani:

But the day before, your doctor said, uh-uh, we're gonna wait

Karolina:

And you know, whoever is listening, I'll tell you how I found my voice. She came after my delivery, she had rounds in the she room.

Dani:

Interesting.

Karolina:

She came to my room and she's like, Karolina, what happened? And I said, you happened. And I literally said, you happened! And she's like, what? And I was like, you stressed me out. Look at this. And she's like, What do you mean? Everything was great in our appointment. I was like, No, it wasn't.

Dani:

No, it wasn't.

Karolina:

And I actually said my piece. Whoa. And she was like, you know, so it was meant to be. And I was like, right?

Dani:

Uh-huh.

Karolina:

And she laughed. And she left, not wanting to, like, check me, she called the nurse and all that stuff. But I felt empowered, you know, I really felt empowered that I was able to say, like, no, you happened. You happened. You again medically gaslighted me, making me believe wasn't. And this time, you know, eight years later, I knew I wasn't. And I wasn't, you know, playing that little game. And that was also, like you asking how that second changed my closure because I actually again that someone told me And I was able to say, like, nah, mm-mm, you. This is all on you, lady, not me.

Dani:

Mm-hmm.

Karolina:

And I found my voice.

Emily:

Wow.

Karolina:

Yeah. What a story. But you know what? That helped me really. That anger, that frustration, I turned it into So you your anger and turn it into good. And I did. Motivation to recover, motivation to work with women, that desire to work with women. And that's what I'm all about. Helping them to find their voice, you know, because they come so fragile. They come so like, I don't know, should I ask? Or can I say this? Yeah. So I'm really embracing our female voice. You know, we have to find that voice because I feel like we gaslighted, and just, you know, I people can make us feel like

Dani:

Especially the first, with the first delivery. I mean, I just didn't know. I thought I had to listen to what the doctors were telling me. And I just, I didn't know. I didn't know yet. I didn't have enough lived experience to go, I don't know about

Karolina:

Right.

Dani:

Like it was my entree into the parenting world and everything was new to me.

Karolina:

Yes.

Emily:

It's a little bit like the first time you go to a restaurant... stay with me on this. This is gonna work.

Dani:

Okay. Everybody buckle up.

Emily:

When you go to a restaurant that's, like, very specialized, or fondue places where you have to cook all your own food, right? And they have to explain to you the process. Or if you've never been to like a tapas restaurant and you know like, five plates because everything is, like, small portions. So like, you go into a restaurant the first time and have before? And you're like, no. Right? All of these doctors, when we go in for labor, they know that this is, like, our first labor and delivery because our chart will say if it is not, right? It'll say, whether we have a baby at home or not, it's still say part of the process before on labor delivery. So they know that we don't know anything. You would think that they would want to bring us along in the anesthesiologist for your second you along and, like, options to you.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Why not? Why not share that knowledge and that passion for this career have chosen?

Karolina:

Right.

Emily:

Like, walk with us through this process instead of go stay out I'm in charge here.

Dani:

Here's what's gonna happen. Okay, so like the waiter will not say, or server... what are we saying today? Waiter? Server? anyway, whatever. They're not saying here's how it works and this is what you're to Right. They're saying these are the options. Some people do this, some people do this. Is this the first full circle restaurant story moment? Yes.

Emily:

Yep, yep, yep. And then you leave the restaurant going, you know what? I liked it there. I'm gonna go again.

Dani:

Or next time, I don't know if I do that, but maybe I'll try... Maybe there's something else on the menu.

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dani:

I think I might try that. This other thing uh wasn't really my cup of tea. Thought it might be. Turns out it's not.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Because some- you thought about not getting the epidural the Like you were like on the fence about it.

Dani:

Oh, for a moment. Okay. But the anesthesiologist, though, really helped her feel

Emily:

Yes.

Karolina:

Yes, you know, and I'll tell you why. My theory about the restaurant is that you know, you they can give you that- I think it's one in Philly when you the sushi comes in it, and you just pick whatever sushi you

Dani:

Oh, like a conveyor belt.

Karolina:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a conveyor belt, exactly. And you, like, pick one this, you know.

Dani:

I'll have an epidural but I'm waiting for the little one to come I don't want, like, I don't want, like, a spinal block I'm gonna keep watching to see what comes along.

Karolina:

Uh-huh let me choose those options. But also, what Emily said, I also, you know, you said, like, every doctor cannot be like that. Well, because I think that we, pregnant women are sitting on conveyor belt. We are sitting, and they're like, next, next.

Emily:

Yes.

Karolina:

Like, we cannot stop you. Why are you talking so much? We have other women, you know, in the line here. So please go.

Dani:

Like, I've only got four and a half minutes in this room.

Emily:

They are overscheduled, right? So, like, some of it's their fault and some of it isn't, right? So, like, there are too many people and not enough doctors in a lot of places to provide the kind of care that they probably want to provide.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

There are doctors who are too afraid of being sued.

Karolina:

Yes.

Emily:

And so they want to stay in control, which means they don't give us the knowledge we need to make informed choices about our

Dani:

I wonder if that's a similar thing in other countries outside the US. Like, are anesthesiologists, for example, as worried about being sued if something went wrong?

Emily:

Americans are uniquely into suing people.

Dani:

We're number one!

Karolina:

I really think so. And I think it's also mentality of people too, because, my home country, Poland, like, you don't sue doctors. Like, they're just, like, the pedestal doctors, and even if they're being sued. You know, so it's a little bit of a difference, but not to epidurals started being used not that long ago here either. Like, women were like in a natural, you know, environment. That's how you're supposed to do it. Like, you know, the Polish mother myth.

Dani:

Oh.

Emily:

No, tell me.

Dani:

Okay, wait. The Polish mother myth. Ooh.

Karolina:

Yes, that's a real thing. You know, you're a tough cookie, you need to do it all, you don't be dramatic. Your mother and grandmother did it, like, by the, whatever. A fence or something, you know, so don't complain. Yeah, so that still exists. But you know what? But on one hand, yes, we get that, but on the other hand, we have so much support, you know, that village that I told you about, but that's not unique to my family. That's actually very Polish family-oriented attitude. So when mother is struggling, you know, her mother's dramatic, but then she's gonna take that baby, she's gonna but then she'll clean your house, take your baby, tell you to take that nap, you know, with this voice.

Dani:

But she's cooking, you got soup on the stove.

Emily:

Don't get too whiny about it.

Karolina:

Yeah, don't get too whiny, don't get whiny, you know, just shh, sleep, and I'll take care of everything.

Dani:

Right.

Emily:

Okay, so the Polish mother myth, I just want to make sure I'm this right, like, is like, there's like strength and sort of, Like, just tough.

Karolina:

Yes, you need to be tough.

Emily:

You can do it all.

Karolina:

Yes.

Emily:

Right.

Karolina:

Always. And see, and that's that paradox, right?

Dani:

And then just close in and hold you, really.

Karolina:

Yes. You know, as I said, we're very, like sarcastic and very, like harsh and all that stuff, but so kind and generous and all, when you ask a mother, how are you? You're not gonna hear, oh, I'm good. You're gonna hear, oh my god, this is horrible. I've been not sleeping for five nights. So you get the raw, real truth.

Emily:

Right.

Karolina:

There's no sugar coating, and sometimes, you know, like in you? Even to my clients, they're like, fine. And I'm like, okay, but how are you? You know.

Dani:

My favorite was my doctor would ask me that, and I'd go, Fine,

Karolina:

Exactly.

Dani:

It's like I blacked out at the appointments and was more like, you know, concerned about looking like things were under control, I I don't know. But you don't have to do that, everybody. Everybody listening, Don't- don't do that.

Karolina:

Yeah, no, no. Be raw, be real, be truthful. Like, that's why we ask, how are you, right? We don't ask just to get, I'm good. What is good?

Dani:

How are you feeling emotionally?

Karolina:

Exactly.

Emily:

I have a resolution of birth trauma question. I want to go back in time again. So you've had your first baby, you have recovered physically, normally. Your sister is providing, let's call it, like, therapeutic right? Like your sister is, like, talking you through and like But not actually, like, billing therapy, right? Like, she's just helping you.

Karolina:

We do it pro bono for everyone, listen. That's another Polish thing.

Dani:

Oh!

Karolina:

Please come. Everything's free. Come.

Emily:

Oh my god, I love it.

Karolina:

Go ahead. I'm sorry.

Emily:

So, did you need other support or help in order to, like, you were okay to get pregnant again? What else had to happen for you, to go, I am willing to try this again.

Dani:

You had a therapist.

Karolina:

No.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

I had a hard time. See, but here's the thing. No, no, no, because I wasn't, you know, again, 10 years almost, eight years ago, there was not really perinatal So I went to a therapist and she was like, yeah, that sucks. So, how are you feeling? I'm just telling you how I'm feeling. I didn't get what I needed. I didn't want just a venting session. I had those venting sessions on a regular basis at home. I wanted that perinatal approach to my life. I wanted that, you know, holding type of therapy. Someone that would actually feel it. Not to mention, like the therapists were like either, you someone that had kids that were older, someone that didn't even know what PMADs were, and I had to explain about birth trauma, and someone that actually, you know, would tell me, like, you know what? Birth trauma is real. You don't have to be diagnosed. If you're telling me you have birth trauma, I believe you. You have birth trauma because this is your experience.

Dani:

If it felt traumatic.

Karolina:

Exactly.

Emily:

That is my favorite thing about PSI is, like, we're like, if a label and you know what it is, great. If you have labeled yourself, also great. If you are like, I don't know, I don't know. We're like, yeah, it's fine. Come on.

Dani:

Both of us were undiagnosed first time around.

Karolina:

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, so I did. There was like two sessions, you know, back then, also telehealth, and everyone kind of was like, telehealth? Back then, was again, like, uh, you're not gonna come to And then my husband was working and I had to go to work, I was working community mental health, so it was a practice to work. So, what happened then, I realized, like, you know what? If I'm gonna go and be frustrated, the two sessions were I was like, I'm wasting my time. I wanna be with the baby. I already cannot walk. I want to spend as much time as I want with him. And that bonding, that bonding with him, my mother, the My husband, like, walking and pacing, how can we help? Let's go and work out on this and all that stuff. My sister calling me every five minutes, not to mention friends and those doctors that were constantly checking on me. Like, we had friends doctors, you know, those are not

Emily:

Calling long distance from Poland to talk to you?

Karolina:

Yes.

Dani:

Ah, okay.

Karolina:

That was something that I feel helped me. Helped me with that anxiety that I did have. Helped me tremendously because I would get stressed out. What if I never walk again? What if I'm not gonna be able to hold the baby? What if I go for a walk and I drop the baby because the And I had those thoughts. Even later on, I'll tell you within the first year, yes, those thoughts. They were passing thoughts, because I know, I work in that those are just thoughts, and I let them pass. I put them on a cloud while I was walking, go away,

Dani:

Ooh, little visualization.

Emily:

That's good.

Dani:

Ooh, that was skilled.

Karolina:

Yes. So I was able to turn that anxiety into that motivation, you know, to get better. And I really, really worked really hard mentally. I read all the books. Mindfulness, that was my thing. You know, my mom was helping me, so I knew I had that Mindfulness books, self-care books. Like, that was the time when actually I embraced the most clients, you know?

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

I feel I was so lucky, and that's why PMADs are so still because you don't know what's causing it, right? It may be this, it may be that, you know. But I'm an example of like, you know what? Hormonal changes, support, uh, not having milk supply, you failure. And then yet I was still able to be quite okay. That anxiety didn't take control over me. You know, it was lingering, it was there, you know, As I said, like, even a year after when my knee would not had my KT tapes, you know, around my knee. Oh, yeah, those thoughts would still come, but they wouldn't overpower me, you know, they would linger, but not So yeah, mindfulness really helped.

Dani:

Wow.

Emily:

That's so good. I think that we have this fear that, like, talking about a illness makes it contagious.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Sometimes. And I'm seeing a big shift in the last three, four, five years, maybe, in doctors and providers being willing to talk to patients about like, here are the risk factors, here are the things to look for after you've had a baby, while you're et cetera, et cetera. But what you're describing is like, you had the knowledge of what postpartum and perinatal mental health might look like.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

And you were able to remain self-aware instead of go, oh, this I'm the person who pictures horrible things in my head happening to my baby.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

And not being able to, like, name it. And I don't think that knowledge of the thing is the same thoughts, but there is so much power in being able to label for what it really is.

Dani:

The whole name it to tame it kind of idea.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

That is helpful for some people to just be able to kind of, and kind of look at yourself and go, oh, this is not some sort of character flaw that you had. You had some things going on for you.

Emily:

Or I am anxious right now, or I am triggered right now. Like being able to say or see. Yeah.

Karolina:

Yes. And that's a third-person perspective that I truly use, and I tell other people, my clients about it. Like, take your emotions out of it. You're watching a movie about someone else's life. What are you seeing? Observe it, name it, and then put yourself in that position than active participant. And that makes a huge difference. And it really worked for me. And that knowledge I share with others. And it helps, you know. I am true believer in the third person perspective, when our emotional brain is turned off, and the rational one is just You know, you can see much more. And that actually, yes, that did help me really. And labeling, you know, helps too. So yeah, I did a lot of work on myself. I think, like, the self-discovery and self-identity you know, with the bad and the good, was tremendous. And I always encourage people to do that. You know, don't lose yourself in this trauma of yours or define you. You are who you are. This is the extra that we need to work on. So, you know. Yeah.

Emily:

I've been thinking about, so when we interviewed Nikki Pensak, talked about matrescence, right? And as you're saying this, I'm like, you already had the before baby.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

This is what perinatal mental health is. These are some of the things. And then you experienced, at least in some ways, some of those And you were interested in, I don't know, the self-reflection.

Karolina:

Self-discovery.

Emily:

Like, how do I discover my new self?

Karolina:

Yes.

Emily:

It's like you were poised for tremendous growth.

Dani:

Neuroplasticity!

Karolina:

Yeah. Good, yes! Neuroplasticity, absolutely. Good one. Yes, absolutely. And it's also, you know, like, yes, our identity shifts when we have a baby, no matter if we have birth trauma or any sort of postpartum stuff, like it shifts. Even if you have everything the way it's supposed to all. So you still have to go through, like, the rediscovering And when you have, like, some extras, you know, like the self-identity, you also have something else that you need to on and make sense of, you know. And sometimes it takes eight years, but you get where you supposed to be, you know? So that is a journey. That really is a journey. The journey that I love to share with other people because I'm not afraid, because I want to talk loudly, because I believe that everyone needs to find that voice. Voice that I didn't have, you know, and now I do.

Dani:

High five.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

High five.

Karolina:

Yay!

Dani:

Eight years was like the magic number. I think that's when I started therapy and finally started my postpartum things, you know, something about eight years. I know. It's like, oh, it's okay, okay for us to talk about it. Yeah.

Karolina:

Yeah, I'm proud of you. Very good.

Emily:

Okay. I want to know how you got connected to PSI. Did you get connected to PSI in 2008 when you were, like, you're hitting Google real hard and you're like, aha.

Karolina:

That's exactly what I did. You know, I Googled, I tried to find things, you know, and So I read everything and then I researched everything. And as I said at the beginning, you know, then when through this, you know, mount 2020 program.

Emily:

You were like, yes.

Karolina:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I really love that. And then, you know, as I said a few months ago, I was like, volunteer, you know, coordinator in Poland. Let me do more. And that's actually the highlight, you know. Like, I wanted to achieve something more than just a Again, in a country that still needs a lot of work. We need a lot of work, but I think Poland needs really lots of work. And I would love to do that work. So hopefully, you know, there's something brewing there, you know.

Emily:

Oh, for sure.

Dani:

That's really incredible. As a coordinator, do you get questions from folks? Like, a help seeker reaches out to PSI and they say, I'm in and...

Karolina:

Yes, but no.

Dani:

Oh, okay.

Emily:

Yeah, how does it work?

Dani:

Tell us more.

Karolina:

I'll tell you why. Because, yeah, nobody really knows about PSI in Poland. Like, I'm hitting a lot of walls. That's my number one goal to spread the awareness that there like that. I would love to create something. You know, we have Spanish, we have different languages, but no nobody thinks about the Polish language that much. You know, we have Russian because it's, you know, the big We have English, French, but we also have Polish. So I would love to translate some of those things to And I think spreading that awareness would help us with PSI, to get more people reaching out. There's no translation for the website. I mean, thankfully, Google can translate right now, but you you know. So when I get inquiries, I get it from my personal website, I ago. That was also my biggest goal to create a Polish website with all of the PMADs, and also where to find help. What are the resources? What are the podcasts you can listen to, you know? And English is our second language here, so, who doesn't speak English? Really rarely we don't. So people can read, listen, and stuff like that. So finally I did that. And that's actually when I started having people reaching out to me. And that was before I became coordinator.

Dani:

Okay.

Karolina:

That's what prompted me.

Dani:

Yeah. You were like, wow, there's a huge need here. So we will put a link to- can we put a link to your website in the show notes? Okay. So if anybody is Polish, or has friends that are Polish and

Emily:

I have a Polish neighbor who go- she goes back to Poland every not this year, because she's got a kid going to college this So they went somewhere else. I don't remember. But, like, I'm gonna pass it along to her because if she's going back every year, she knows other Polish folks who might be

Karolina:

Yeah. Yes, please. I mean, it's a great, it's not a scary page, it's just a page with the raw information, something legit, something you know.

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

And I think we really need that in Poland, you know, just that is true.

Dani:

And so when people reach out to you on your website, what's on Like, do you help people find therapists in Poland and the US?

Karolina:

And the US, because we have a huge Polish population in the and also sometimes in Britain, with Great Britain, that's For Polish people. So yes, they do reach out. Like I have a few of those, and you know, finding someone So I do tell them about PSI directory. You can pick the language and you can find through that. Or I manually try to do that. I'm creating, actually, the directory of therapists that I I would feel comfortable sending people to, but you know, I check their website, and sometimes I'm like, okay, what Yeah. So that's what's lacking in my home country. The legit trainings, you know. And I would hope that maybe PSI will expand to other to create something that would actually be legit.

Emily:

We might have to go to Europe. I don't know.

Dani:

Site visit.

Karolina:

Please, it's gorgeous. I come from Krakow, one of the medieval towns with all the and the oldest universities in the world. Like, yeah.

Dani:

I've never been to Poland.

Karolina:

Gorgeous.

Dani:

Emily, we'll have, like, a personal, uh, tour guide. I have family from Krakow and Ukraine, but it wasn't Ukraine then.

Karolina:

Nitty gritty of polish stuff, oh, you would love it. Please come.

Dani:

Okay, we'll call you later.

Karolina:

Yes, please, please.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

I heard we have a place to stay. We can arrange that, too. We got this. We got this. Yes.

Dani:

We'll talk after the episode here. Um, okay, are we ready to jump into the lightning round?

Karolina:

My favorite part, yes.

Dani:

The most burning questions.

Karolina:

I've been waiting for it.

Dani:

Okay. What is your second favorite podcast? If you were to recommend a podcast, obviously, besides this

Karolina:

Yeah, you know what? Yours is the best, right? We know that. Number one! But we're talking about the second good one. So the second good one, in my personal, you know, booklet. I don't know if you've never, ever heard about podcast Nothing Much Happens?

Dani:

No. First time recommendation here.

Emily:

Whoa.

Karolina:

Yes, this is the podcast ran by Kathryn Nicolai. She also has a book about that and stuff. It's a guided imagery podcast. It's fantastic. You know, the way she tells the stories will really help different place, in a different world. Because you know what's funny? The funny thing is that she has real, like real stuff, but ordinary, observe, funny podcasts that are really helping especially people with, like, obsessive thoughts and you know. So there's this one podcast I will tell you, I was one to mention. So I have three, like, really good ones. So one, it's called like the evening of 4th of July. So then she talks about like concerts on the grass, you and, picnics, so kind of normal, right? Regular. Then I have this one that it's called um, I wrote it, the And this one is more about like, you know, sunny gardens and what's happening in a garden. But here is my favorite one. It's called the cake parade.

Dani:

This is an episode on Nothing Much Happens. Okay.

Karolina:

Yes, it does.

Dani:

The cake parade.

Karolina:

The cake parade is actually a parade for a cake being a you know, everyone gathers for that cake parade. So they are like, dressed up in their favorite pastries, you And there's a marching band playing for the cake, and then this cake coming in, you know, with the smell of vanilla.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

And with the laughter of people, and it's a sunny, breezy

Dani:

Is this podcast something that you would listen to when you, like just to kind of, like, calm your mind, and kind of, like, bring to center, kind of, and just think, okay, there's a lot going on up here. She gives so much description, so you can be like...

Karolina:

Basically for, like, sleeping, for grounding yourself, or so you can pick– even her website, if you go to, like, Nothing

Dani:

Okay.

Karolina:

the website is calming, and she gives you descriptions of such a way, of like, a few sentences that you already feel about sunny garden that you're walking through with your know?

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

Is it in English? Polish?

Karolina:

No, no, no, it's an English podcast. Yeah, she's American, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's a book about that stuff too. I mean, I found it years, years ago. I don't even know if that was in, like, that 10 years ago, I actually needed to ground myself because I don't even this, but this is my to-go-to when I'm like, okay, I need And sometimes I turn the podcast of, like, making a salad. There is a podcast about, like, episode about making a salad. And you go to the kitchen, and you open the fridge. You know, simplicity of it.

Dani:

I'm gonna check that out.

Emily:

Yes!

Karolina:

You definitely have to. Refreshing, very refreshing.

Emily:

That sounds good.

Dani:

Do you think that this is a good podcast, like, for like, a that needs help going to sleep, or is this more of like an kind of a thing?

Karolina:

Oh no. Even my kid. I turned the cake parade for my 10-year-old, and he's like, mommy. But I was like, but did you hear it? And he's like, well, yeah, imagine everything.

Dani:

Sometimes I'm like, why is there a murder podcast on in her yeah, this is not, this is not a bedtime thing. Stop.

Emily:

Click.

Dani:

I'll put this on my list of things to suggest to my teenager has asleep. That's up there with uh, well, whatever. This isn't my episode. We're talking about you. Okay. I have to be a guest if I want to give suggestions. Okay.

Karolina:

But I'm so happy nobody ever mentioned that. I'm happy to bring something refreshing here.

Dani:

Yeah! This is great. Never heard it. First time.

Emily:

Okay. Next question. Are you binge watching, or, like, listening to or reading What do we need to add to our queue?

Karolina:

You know what? I was thinking, uh, watching. What- what is watching?

Dani:

Oh, like on TV, like watching.

Karolina:

Um, what TV? Hold on.

Emily:

So, the TV is a thing in your living room that emits blue and sleep. Yeah.

Karolina:

So we we supposed to know where that is, right? You know, you hear the sarcasm? Yeah, no. I don't even know when was last time I turned the TV on. I have everything in my list, you know, a binge list, and And I don't know if I'm ever gonna be able to get to it, but I one day, one day, but I can tell you books, yes. I read a books, I start them, and I have a lot books everywhere.

Dani:

This is a throwback question.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Dani:

Do you prefer to listen to a book? You like a book in your ear or a book in your hand?

Karolina:

I love to hold the book, I love the smell of the book.

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Karolina:

You know, remember I'm geriatric, so I'm old school, right?

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

I love reading books, I really do. And you know, I'm one of these people that loves to see the They read the whole book, but I'm always going to the end. How is it gonna end? You're a skipper! Oh. Uh-huh, love it. And the same with movies. My husband is like, do you want to know how it ends? And I'm like, yep, yep, tell me, tell me, tell me! I may never watch it all, but tell me how it ends.

Dani:

So you like to skip to the end in books and on TV, and you're like, Yeah. I don't need to know how the characters have all, you know,

Karolina:

But you know, funny thing is that I still read it, you know, but I love the ending. You like to know what to expect.

Emily:

Yes, that's what I was gonna say. I'm like, you don't want to be surprised.

Karolina:

I don't- I don't really like suprises. Uh-uh.

Dani:

That's okay.

Karolina:

And you know what is funny, I've been married for so my know, I know you want to get your gift, you know, for your And I'm like, okay, okay. Do you want to know what you get for Christmas? And I'm like, okay.

Dani:

That is very interesting.

Karolina:

Very interesting. You know, we all, you know, in this world, there's a lot so.

Dani:

It's okay. You know what you like.

Karolina:

Blame it on cultural difference. Blame it on cultural difference. I love that one. So, anyways, but I'll tell you. So, two books that I'm doing. One is a short one, one is my favorite perinatal book. So one is, like, I actually was in Denmark and I picked book, Hygge.

Dani:

Yes, it's like small and, like, it's like a light color, but, blue.

Karolina:

Yes, yes, yes. So this is the book about happiness, right? Danish people are considered the happiest in the world been starting to read that, and I'm not fully done yet, lighting, about the candles, about rain, and coziness, so good.

Dani:

It's really kind of like also- it's, like, about being in the

Karolina:

Absolutely. So that's the one I'm on. But I'll tell you, recently I was reorganizing my that I truly love. This is like the third time I'm reading it. I love it. It's called Bringing Up Bebe. Have you ever heard about that? Bringing up Bebe by Pamela Druckerman. Really good book. I'll tell you why. So, this is the book about American lady that moves to France.

Dani:

Oh!

Karolina:

And she's starting raising her baby and has a cultural And it's like, wait, what? It's a book about normalizing motherhood, about There is, you know, book that is embracing boundaries, but whole motherhood, mom and dad roles. That book just talks about balance, that you can have balance, that you don't have to know it all, that there is no right of raising your children, that you don't have to put that basically got this. So it's really, really laid-back book and funny. She's funny.

Dani:

You know, in a day and age where there are so many opinions and just, you should do this, you should parent this way, you should product. It is very important to hear the message that there isn't one

Karolina:

Nope.

Dani:

Like, to do anything.

Karolina:

Yes.

Dani:

Well, I mean, if you're baking something, it's kind of science. So, like, you know, you need to like have the right amounts of

Karolina:

Yes, you're absolutely right. There is no right or wrong way. There is like, we're learning, we don't have to know it So she talks in that book about that. And I'll tell you the best part in the book. You flip the book. I like the ending, right? So you flip the book, and at the end there's a manual for And that manual for dads is what makes this book so unique. It's short, it's simple, it's funny, and it's actually

Dani:

Even your husband read it.

Karolina:

Even my husband read it 10 years ago. Yes, yes, and we had a laughing session because it's really know, and simple. Like it's supposed to be, right? Simple, short and simple.

Dani:

I need short and simple. I can't handle long chapters. Give me some short chapters with a heading, so I what to expect, when a kid comes in and you know, I need to put it- anyway.

Karolina:

That's that. So if you've never read that one, and it's not just for, expecting parents or something. Like, I recommend that book to, like, my mothers, you know, preteens or... it's really good to just get distance to that whole motherhood perspective, you know? So really, really great book, Bringing Up Bebe.

Dani:

Okay, awesome.

Emily:

That sounds good.

Dani:

Um, do you have a great parenting hack that you'd like to our listeners?

Karolina:

Yeah, you know, um, what I've learned from being a mom is you have to learn how to regulate your own nervous system and your own emotional senses and things. So this is a hard one. I'm still learning how to do that, you know? But what I've learned, and I always tell people, you have to start naming your emotions. So my kids would come to me and say, mom, I am really with you right now. And you know what I say? Victory! Honey, I'm so proud of you. And he's like, mom, I just told you I'm frustrated with you. And I said, and I'm hearing your emotions, and I'm very of you, because I've been doing this even when he was little, you know, my 10-year-old. I've been saying, mommy needs a mommy needs five minutes Or when we cry, you know how moms are like, mommy's not mommy's okay. No, no, no. I've been saying mommy's crying, mommy needs a moment. I'm sad, you know, this is how I'm feeling, and I'm letting you know. And I'm not hiding it, I'm not gonna portray that everything is great. No, no, it's okay, I can have those feelings. So, you know, regulating the nervous system, regulating your emotions, naming your emotions, help that kid to also their own.

Dani:

Not only does that help the kid, I know personally that helped still helping, will always continue help me grow and, like, myself by saying, out loud, I'm feeling really overwhelmed right

Karolina:

Yep, yep.

Dani:

I'm just going to go outside for two minutes and then I'll be back. But it helps, like, give myself permission to not feel like I to stay in this highly stressful situation. I'm getting way overstimulated, no chance of coming Yes, naming your emotions. Good for the kids, good for the adults. Excellent suggestion. I like it.

Karolina:

Good. I'm happy that you like it.

Dani:

Thanks. Emily, what's the next question? This is so lightning-y. This is the fastest round ever.

Emily:

What is one way that you are gonna show yourself some radical

Karolina:

You know, and I was thinking about it actually today, right? Like, what am I gonna do, right? But I'll tell you. So I am going to give myself permission to rest without

Dani:

Oh, yeah.

Karolina:

That's my big one, you know, that's everyone's big one, Guilt, rest. Like, I shouldn't be resting, I should be more

Dani:

We live in a fast-paced world, you know? Like, it's okay to slow down.

Karolina:

Absolutely. And you know, as therapists, we always hold space for but we sometimes don't hold space for ourselves, right?

Emily:

Yes.

Karolina:

I am guilty of saying, I can squeeze one more session. I am guilty also for saying, like, you know, I was have one session, like at 7 p.m., like, my kid can wait, we watch that movie later. And then you look at that kid of yours and they're like, what? But we were supposed to- and then you're like, oh, so you guilty for your client that wanted to see you, feel guilty to watch a movie. So you are like, I cannot win, right? And in those moments, you have to remind yourself it's okay to Set the boundaries that you're teaching your clients to set. Just tell yourself it's okay, you need to rest. And you know, I have this favorite quote of mine: give the what's best of you, not what's left of you.

Dani:

Oh, hang on. Excuse me while I write this down, taking notes.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

Isn't that a good one?

Emily:

Give the world what's best of you, not what's left of you.

Karolina:

Yeah.

Dani:

Coming to the internet soon. That's a great quote.

Karolina:

Right, but isn't that so raw and honest? Because that's the truth, you know. Sometimes, like, I feel like as therapists, we we look at like, that it's basically tied to our productivity. Like, if I'm not productive, it means I had a wasted like work-wise, time-wise. And you know what? No, no, no, I'm gonna choose rest.

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

You know, I'm gonna choose self-care because that's my, Like, rest is the fact that I'm respecting myself. So that's my little thing, you know. I was thinking about it today, and that's what I'm gonna do, you know.

Emily:

Yeah.

Karolina:

Just yeah, something with my kiddos.

Dani:

Do we need to credit anybody? Is this like, an original...

Karolina:

It is a quote that someone, yes, it is an original

Dani:

From somebody.

Karolina:

Whoever came up with this.

Dani:

It's great.

Karolina:

It's free, and I'm just saying, it's not mine it's a quote I love it. Whoever came up with that was brilliant, right?

Dani & Emily:

Mm-hmm.

Karolina:

I love it. So that's my little radical love.

Dani:

Okay, I think it's time for us to hop into a time machine and to go all the way back 10 years ago, before baby number one was or maybe after. It could be after, postpartum, right? What is one thing that today you, 2025 Karolina, would say to

Karolina:

Yeah. So I also would like to, you know, make it short, sweet, and to the point. So here it is. So, you know, I would tell her that she is not broken. What she's feeling is real, and she doesn't have to know, no justifications at all. That she's allowed to grieve the experience she went even if others try to minimize it or pretend that it or maybe it's not what she thinks it was, and all of that, you know. I would tell her that healing isn't linear, that it polished, you know.

Dani:

Yeah.

Karolina:

I would remind her that her gaslighting and the dismissal fault, and that feeling invisible doesn't mean that she's invisible. That's how I felt many, many times. So no, she wasn't invisible. She only felt that way, you know? And her voice matters, and her experience matters, and most she's not alone. She has a huge support, huge village that she's always gonna be grateful for. And you know, I would also tell her that this story doesn't end in fear, that it grows into something very, very powerful. And that one day she will have another baby, and that this will be so different and so much better, and that her fear valid, but will also change into love and happiness, you Because the past doesn't define her future, and this time she will be heard, prepared, and supported in the ways that she before. And you know, I would also tell her that she will run super even though she's not a runner, but she will dance that her husband whenever she has a chance. And that she will and jump, and jump with her kids on that trampoline, that she thought she would never be able to do.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

And perhaps, the most importantly, I would tell her that to her, but to other women. That she will share it and dismissed, so they know that they are not alone either. So she will become a voice for those who need to feel believe them. I would tell her that she will simply rock. [baby screams in That is the scream of my baby.

Dani:

Oh!

Emily:

That was perfect.

Dani:

We are leaving that in!

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Boom.

Karolina:

She will rock. That's what I would tell her that, you know, she will always and that's how I feel today, and that's the message.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

I can- we can hear it. It's all good, it's totally okay.

Emily:

Oh my goodness. Okay, how do you take your water?

Karolina:

Oh, that's the good one, you know. So, I'll tell you, the water needs to be bubbly.

Dani:

Oh.

Karolina:

Super bubbly!

Dani:

Strong opinions about that.

Karolina:

In Poland, we have that one company that says super bubbly and it's so bubbly that it gets into your nose, and I love the bubbles.

Dani:

It makes your eyes water?

Karolina:

And you know, it needs to be chilled, but not too cold. I always tell, like, when someone, like, asks me, how you like water, I say chilled but not cold. You know, I don't want like a nervous system shock. Like, don't put ice in there, settle down. No ice, no flavors, no extra, no drama, no sweetness. It's not a fruit salad, you know. We just want pure water. No, no, no. When I see all this fruit, I'm like, no, no, I want a salad on the side, you know. This is just my water. Pure, clean perfection, you know.

Emily:

You're like, I want this water to burn my nose, and I want over here in a bowl.

Karolina:

And no straw.

Dani:

Keep that fruit out of my cup.

Karolina:

[inaudible] or whatever you put in it. No, no, no herbs, no herbs. Pure and clean. And you know what? The last thing it needs to be in a glass, tall, fancy glass, you know. It's self-care. Drinking that bubbly water is like this, you know, extra So it's very fancy. It has to be fancy schmancy, you know. Fancy schmancy glass of super bubbly, watery eyes, you know, Yes. So that's my water, you know, no drama water. I call it a no-drama water.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

That's cool.

Dani:

Well, with that, I would just like to ask if anything has excuse me, with listeners, which, I mean, there's a lot that

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

If they'd like to get in touch with you, what's the best way? Like reaching out. We've put your website in the show notes. Are you on social media? Is that another great way? Tell us, how can people get a hold of you?

Karolina:

My website's the best one, right? Mainlineprocounseling.com, that's the name of my practice. There is my phone number, my email. Folks can easily reach me via that. But I'm also on Instagram. You can find me at women.wellness.therapy. That's my Instagram name. My Polish Instagram also exists when I try to translate into really attempting to even tell you it's pronounced. But when folks, you know, like uh foreigners Polish speaking wants to find it, I did put that in my women wellness I mean, I'm sorry, Instagram. The names. So yes, please go there. I'm also on PSI directory, so people can always reach me that. And yeah, don't be strangers. I'm always happy to, you know, share my knowledge, referrals, whatever that is. So yeah.

Dani:

Yes, you're all over the place, you're worldwide. Yes, please get in touch whenever. Great. Well, Emily, would you like to take us out?

Emily:

I would love to. Karolina, this has been a pleasure. As a fellow birth trauma survivor, it is so good to hear when your story came full circle in like the ways that it needed to. Um, as a fellow pole, uh a couple generations removed, pretty of my identity. Yes. It was just so lovely to talk to you about culture and trauma and and even to talk about the terrible medical gaslighting and how you're helping people push back, find their voice, and say, no Thank you so much.

Karolina:

Yes, I really appreciate it. And thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

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Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
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Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host