DIVYA KUMAR - I AM ONE Bush-Whacking Bridge-Builder to Places I've Never Been

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the incomparable Divya Kumar - a Perinatal Mental Health-Certified psychotherapist, writer, speaker, co-founder of what is now The Alliance for People of Color & longtime friend of PSI! We’ll chat all about the complexities of perinatal mental health at all kinds of intersections (I’m gesturing vaguely – there are just so many intersections). We’ll touch on the evolution of support systems, the need for cultural sensitivity in mental health care, & the significance of building bridges for better understanding and support. The list goes on. You don’t want to miss this one. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Divya.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• Women & Infants (IOP in Providence)
• The Alliance for People of Color
• PSI Annual Conference
• Podcasts: Mom & Mind; Healing the Tigress
• Book: House of Caravans 
• Parenting hack: GO TO THERAPY!
• Contact Divya: Website; Instagram: @bothbrownandtherapist

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Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Dani 

Divya, welcome to the podcast studio. We are so thrilled to be spending the next hour of our day with you. think that today we are experiencing near perfect conditions for recording. It's Friday. Did I mention it's almost the weekend? The third thing I want to mention is both sides of my face are back to full working order after a little dental work on Wednesday. And I think that the listeners should know this was cracking us up before we started recording. Totally my fault. There's a little scheduling mix up about our recording day. And yeah, I could not pronounce anything with more than two syllables a couple days ago. It's great that we are recording today and not Wednesday, but I digress. This episode is not about me. It is about you. So Divya, welcome to the studio. Sitting down with you is the highlight of our week. FYI.

Divya

Thank for having me. It's so nice to be here. I'm so glad that both sides of your face are not numb and they're working. The scheduling is just, I don't know, it's just life. It's all good. It's so great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Emily

Thanks for saying yes! Yeah, thanks for clearing your schedule for us.

Dani 

So, Emily, you look like you are ready to go.

Emily 

Divya, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself? Like name, pronouns, astrological sign, favorite pizza topping, whatever.

Divya

Okay. Can I talk about that for an hour? No, just kidding. So I'm Divya. If you are, my mother would be like, teach the American people how to say the soft D. And so if you are a soft D person, you can say Divya. You can say it either way you want. It's okay. I have two children. my God. My son is going to be 18 in June, which is wild. He's about to graduate from high school, which is just like. Yeah. then my daughter is in ninth grade. She's 15. She'll be 16 in September. She's like an old ninth grader because of our school cutoff. I live in Jamaica Plain, which is a neighborhood in Boston. I am a child of Indian immigrants. I grew up in Connecticut, so I'm sort of in between. Like I think the theme that I'll probably talk about a lot is how I'm sort of in between places. Like my parents are immigrants. I was born here. My husband is white. We had these multiracial, multicultural, multi-multi everything kids. What else? What do I like on my pizza? I veggies on pizza. am a Pisces. So I have many feelings and opinions and just I have, there's like a lot of intense emotional stuff, dreamy, know. I like to knit. I like to bake. I was going to wear my drink water, love hard, fight racism shirt, but it was all like, Oh, like music. like singing. Sometimes I really like being with my kids. Sometimes I don't. You know, I like the beach. like water, Pisces.

Dani

Do you sing in the car or a choir or all the above? How do you like to sing?

Divya

I like my singing anyway. okay. But yeah, music has always been a really big part of my life. I sang a cappella when I was in high school and college and I wrote music and played guitar and sang for years. And my husband and I met each other because we both like music and did all this music stuff in college. And so it's been in and out of my life. And now my daughter really likes music. So it's really fun because we can play guitar and sing songs together.

Dani (03:55.31)

Listeners are in for a treat today because Divya and her family are about to sing a song. I'm just kidding. Nevermind. I'm joking.

Divya

But yeah, no, it's really fun because, you know, my daughter and I will sing like Boy Genius and Katie Gavin and all that stuff. It's really fun. Yeah, it's a fun time with her.

nice.

Emily (04:15.342)

That's cool. That was a great intro. Divya, can you tell us what role, if any, I'm suspecting there is a role, that perinatal mental health disorders, complications have played in your life personally, professionally? What would you like to share? Loaded question.

Divya 

Well, it's interesting because my kids are a little bit older, right? And I don't know, kind of, I don't know. Sometimes when I'm in the perinatal mental health world, there's a lot of people who like, who have like really small children and it's, I feel like the field has evolved much since when my kids were little and that's, it's a good thing. But it's interesting because I look at people who are new parents now and I'm like, dang, we're talking about things professionally that we just didn't at the time, which is good.

The therapist to me is like, and then we have grief and loss and we mourn the things that we did not have and all that. That's such an iterative process and I feel like I talk to clients about that and I experienced that myself because there was no alliance, for example, when I had my kids in 2007 and 2009 and the perinatal mental health field was everything I saw was really white and I can get back to that in a minute. Anyway, so to answer your question, personally, my gosh. Like the personal piece, like kind of shaped the professional piece, if that makes sense, as it did, I think for many of us who I know, survivors who sit in this seat with y'all. Yeah. I just think about how many professionals I saw when I was struggling, like when I was just like in the pit, particularly after my daughter, when I really struggled. And I think about who asked the right questions and who didn't, who even asked questions and who didn't. I think about how many times I went to the PCP's office and I saw a nurse practitioner there. was having these weird, irregular heartbeats and I came in other like weird somatic things. Not weird, but they felt weird to me at the time. And I came in with a baby in the snap and go and the little bucket thing. And I was wearing purple sweatpants that were literally covered with fire truck stickers. It was clear that I had an infant who was with me and I was covered in stickers, which if you know anything and chances are, you have another small child at home. There's a toddler who like would do anything like if I just put firetruck stickers anywhere near him because he was two and a half. I went to that office so many times and I was like, my heart feels weird. This is weird. I don't know. I don't know. Nobody was like, how are you really doing? What else is going on with you? She's like, there's something wrong with your heart.

Right, there's a toddler in the midst.

Emily (06:49.774)

They just like listen and they're like, sounds great.

Divya 

we can give you Holter monitor. We can do this." I was like, and I think about the professionals who did help me at the time and how amazing they were and how much more care I needed. What questions were asked, which questions were not asked. I was never, ever completely honest. There were flickerings of times where I came close to being honest and I got some very, very sort of deep compassion and also like I think I was so in pain and so deeply, like just really struggling that like I didn't know how to let people come near me and I didn't know how to come near people in that pain. And I always felt like I had no real options and I felt very stuck. And that experience really informed where I went professionally, right? I have always been this person in between a bunch of different worlds, like a bridge builder and a connector. I went to public health school out of undergrad and I ended up doing a mix of like macro, like programmatic stuff and also micro like advocacy for survivors of violence stuff. I created a program for violence prevention response at MIT. So I was like, we need this. I'm always a person who's like, hey, we need a thing. Let's make a thing. And I'm often like the person who was like largely by myself, maybe with somebody else being like, let's make a thing. There's a need. Let's make a thing. I quit that job. I had all my PMADs. It was terrible. And I started running new parents groups in my community and became a postpartum doula and a lactation counselor. And you can't really take the public health out of the girl. And I was like, we should embed all this stuff where people are. And I helped create a pilot program in local community health centers. And that was really cool. And with a couple other colleagues, I created something called the Every Mother Project. It doesn't really exist anymore, but it was cool at the time where

Divya (08:34.391)

We did all these trainings, we had a toolkit for any perinatal professional to learn about PMADS and screen for PMADS, like patient counselors, travel with educators, yoga teachers, doulas, whatever. In 2015 or so, I started looking around and realizing that I was one of the only people of color in the room talking about PMADS, talking about perinatal mental health. And if there were other people of color there, chances are I was the only Asian American person, only Desi person. And sometimes in the various roles that I had in the jobs that I had, people would be like,

you know a black therapist? Do you know a clinician of color?" And I was like, I can help you find one, but it's kind of hard to find that person. And I started to really see the more of a need for that. And so in 2016, I applied to social work school. It was also really hard to do the job that I was doing. And I remember going out to dinner with my husband and I was like, why didn't I get an MSW out of undergrad? And he was like, you could go back to school. And I was like, like she says in When Harry Met Sally, but I'm going to be 40.

Like, eventually.

No, I think I was 39 at the time. Oh, okay. I was going to be 40. He was like, oh, my mom went back to get her doctorate when my sister and I were 12 and 10. Go back to school. I went back to school to be a social worker and to be a brown perinatal therapist that I saw a need for.

I needed a therapist like me.

Divya (09:53.88)

I needed a therapist and too many people needed a therapist, not like me, but like needed, we just need, I've always said like we need more of us. And I also like coming back to the personal piece, it has always been my goal and I'll say this anytime you give me a microphone that every single person who touches a birthing parent, birthing person or a new parent rather, should be able to know what PMADS are.

What did they look like? How do you talk to somebody about them? What are their resources? There were just too many people that I interacted with who are like, you're fine. You're okay. They didn't ask me the right questions.

because the scale upon which we were being measured at that time was like, are you unable to get out of bed? Are you disassociated from reality? If not, then you're just hypervigilant. You're doing a great job. Like, sorry that the anxiety is debilitating or whatever, but.

Was it either like people were thinking it's baby blues, it'll go away or it was an emergency and there was nothing in between or.

I mean, I think it took me a long time to get some help. I've always been an anxious person. I always, y'all seen The Good Place, you know that show? Yeah. When I don't have anxiety or back pain, I'm like, it's a good place. I'm just like a little, I run a little anxious. I run a little. A therapist I saw after my daughter was born, one of the greatest gifts she ever gave me.

Dani (11:17.815)

anxious.

Divya (11:24.27)

I like, I'm just very anxious. I have to be less anxious. I spent my whole life trying to be less anxious. She was like, everybody's got it crazy, honey. You know, maybe you're a little anxious. Like, you spend a lot of time trying really hard not to be anxious. Maybe you're a little anxious. And I was like, oh. You know, when you're pulling on a tug of rope, warp rope really hard, sometimes the best thing you can do is just let go of the rope. So, I knew that I was, I knew I had some anxiety. I was seeing a therapist before my son was born.

Yeah.

Divya (11:51.478)

She was not the right person for me. She really wanted me to do mindfulness. I kind of don't… It's not really for me. And she's like, you need to meditate. You need to do mindfulness. And she couldn't meet me where I was, if that makes sense. Yeah. And then I was like, fine, I'm not going to go back to you. You're not helpful for me because I'm also a child of immigrants. And I'm like, everything's always hard. Everything's hard because it's Friday. Things are hard. You're supposed to like white-knuckle through things and…

suck it up and not really complain. And then after my daughter was born, I quit that job that I loved and then I really, really struggled. I had a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety. I had a lot that nobody diagnosed. I not know what it was. Same for me. I'm so sorry. That sucks that we all struggle.

lot of OCD.

Dani (12:36.276)

yeah.

Emily (12:44.096)

Was yours like in your head? It was like the thoughts and the around and around in this way.

It was that and a lot of compulsions and a lot of rituals. I did not understand it. Nobody asked the right questions. Nobody asked the questions. I knew that like, I'm just going to say something, like if my daughter were here, we don't say crazy anymore, I'm like, that's crazy. She's like, that's ableist and you're a therapist and you should know better, do better. I'm like, we've taught you kids well.

Dang, she got me. Yeah.

Yes.

It's hard to be… I mean, she's great, but it's hard to be around her sometimes. Anyway, there's my brain. But I will say now when I look back, I'm like, that ish was cuckoo bonkers, like so cuckoo bonkers. And like, I think I hid some of it well. I don't know how much I hid really well, but I knew how to like spread my weird stuff out so that…

Emily (13:25.651)

huh.

Divya (13:45.16)

Some people might have seen some things, but other people didn't see all the things. A lot of it was around breastfeeding. some of it was around cleanliness, but a lot of it was around nursing because I had some nursing trouble and then I got very fixated in that. Nobody asked me the right questions to help me figure it out. Like I look back now when I went to the lactation consultant, when I went to the acupuncturist, when I went to the therapist, all the people that I sort of split and asked different things to.

And-

Divya (14:13.644)

I really wish that somebody had like put everybody in the room together and been like, okay, honey, we need to figure out what's going on because you're having a whole bunch of different conversations with all of us. And we're concerned at a whole bunch of different ways. Can we get to the bottom of what might be going on here in order to figure out how to get you the help that you needed?

What are some questions that you wish that you had been asked?

Why are you doing what you're doing? What are you really worried about here? What is your deep worry? If you don't do this, if you don't take this one supplement or if you don't drink this one extra cup of tea, if you don't drink all four of these glasses of water, if you drink three, what will happen?

No.

Because they just look like systems or habits to the outside observer, right?

Divya (15:02.732)

And I am a person with systems and habits around specific things. If I look back now, I had a whole bunch of obsessive-compulsive tendencies all through life, as many of us do. And if I, as a therapist, kind of like, I don't really care about what a diagnosis is. That's all like some colonized crap that we don't really need to get into. I care about what you are experiencing as a person. Yeah.

If you cannot, like if it takes you half an hour to take all your supplements and drink all your teas and like do specific things that you need to do, that is interfering with your life.

Yeah, is that getting in the way? Yes it is.

is getting in the way. But nope, I was able to hide some things and I knew that what I was doing was weird and like not normal. But I was like, I can't talk about this. This is just very bizarre. And like I look back now and like I was a tinderbox. I had like a whole bunch of coping stuff that I had developed all through childhood because you just develop stuff and you hide it. again, the immigrant stuff, the white knuckling, they're like, we're good here. know, my parents like capital S struggled. like everything.

And if you talk about it, then that is shameful.

Divya (16:13.454)

It's shameful and it's also like, just like, what is going on with you?

you don't

What's interesting also though is I felt very, very seen by a South Asian therapy account on Instagram. I don't know what one it was. I have a mixed relationship with social media. But there was this, I don't know what the word is. was like an image. Meme? It wasn't a meme. Infographic. Thank you. It's like, I'm like Gen X, Mad Libs. Okay, cool.

Infographic?

Dani (16:41.326)

You

Dani (16:45.006)

Give me a plural noun!

But with like all of these faces and like the things that the aunties would say, like all the superstitions, don't cut your nails after dark, make sure that you do this, all these like weird superstitious crap that we grew up with. And I was like, that's so funny. Relate, relate, relate. Swipe. And it's like all of this was the breeding ground for anxiety and OCD because we were taught that the world was arbitrary and we had to do random meep meep in order to make sure that something bad wouldn't happen. you were like. And I was like, I just can't talk it in.

You feel targeted.

was like, Okay, so this, was a Tinder box and then I had these babies.

And you were standing at intersections. If life is a Venn diagram, Divya is in the center of the diagrams trying to make sure all the people in this circle and in this circle and in this circle are feeling seen or understood or whatever. And it's like you're holding space for people who aren't even sharing your space.

Divya (17:27.427)

Yes.

Divya (17:45.548)

Right. And I think what's interesting now, you're totally right, Emily, and this is what you talking about a second ago. There was no mirror for anything that I was going through, right? I was not like a sad white lady with a golden retriever looking out the window and like, I'm sad. I have postpartum depression. Which isn't to make fun of anybody in those images. But I was like, that is not me. I am very anxious.

You are waiting to see you, to see something that felt like you.

Right. I was like, why is all this? When I did start seeing the blogs, this is the mommy blog era, right? I was like, I can't do any of this because this is not me. Everybody started talking about PMADS and postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety and blah, blah. I was like, I'm not like you. I have whole other set of things that are layered on top of this brown body. It was great to see people talk about this stuff. Also, my stuff was different and I had like, the OCD was so

so prominent for me. I wasn't just sad. I was like trapped in like this world of

Stuff.

Dani (18:50.89)

Hmm, yes.

Sorry, I just took you on an affect journey. thanks for the breath, Danny.

I like going on trips. That was adventurous. I like that. Okay.

Okay, at what point was there like a watershed moment? Was there a tipping point? how do you see this is untenable and or of if not a diagnosis, set of language that I can explain the thing.

How did you get to the?

Dani (19:12.493)

I have

Dani (19:17.869)

used to

That's a good question. There is not really a watershed moment. It was more sort of like this trickle. Like I started seeing a therapist when my daughter was, I don't know, maybe four or five months old. She was so lovely. She's in my pantheon of lovely people, kind, warm. She helped me a lot with some stuff around my son. My son was a very difficult infant and toddler. And so that was part of the thing that was hard is I not only felt terrible, my son was really challenging.

And her oldest kid was also kind of like this. And she was like, I get it, honey, you're amazing. Like a lot of people just don't understand what it's like to have a kid like this. And I was like, okay. But there wasn't a lot more that she could do. And I also wasn't telling the truth about what was going on, which was part of it was me, but part of it, I was just felt like I was so crazy that everybody was going to think that I was so crazy. And if somebody was like, you have OCD, this is a thing. It would have been a little bit better, but I was like, I'm crazy in a way that nobody's talking about.

So I'm over here on my like crazy aisle.

Like before you went into your appointments, did you have like screeners that were like, are you feeling sad or how many days this week have you blah, blah, Like.

Divya (20:26.424)

Well, nobody asked me, do you have a specific, like, routine and ritual that you have to do every day around your fluid intake? Yeah. that's why, like, and I hit it really well in some ways. Maybe somebody who knew me at the time then would be like, we knew that you had trouble. We didn't know exactly what was going on. I did try to take meds. I couldn't tolerate them. And so that was really hard. I also saw a psychiatrist who was like, we think that you have hypomania and you have a mood disorder.

That is very specific, right?

Divya (20:55.83)

I don't have hypomania. I just have a lot of affect and I'm going to present a certain way when I'm uncomfortable. And I'm like, hey, everything's okay and I'm depressed and I'm kind of anxious.

She didn't look depressed to me. I think that you're not alone. mean, there are many reasons why people might not share how they're actually feeling inside, you know, especially at the doctor's office, right? I mean, I straight up bled on those screening. Yeah, I was like, but what happens though if I tell how I'm actually feeling? Right. I didn't even tell my family though. Like, you know.

I think if I'm honest and I know now, and maybe I knew then, I don't know what I knew. It's weird. I probably should have been hospitalized, but I did not want to be hospitalized because I had all this breastfeeding stuff and I knew that I would be away from the baby. I was like, well, I can't do that.

Was it like difficulty with production or latching or all of the things?

It was, at that point, it was really in my head. think I had these letdown problems, but I had all these very specific rituals around what I had to do around breastfeeding.

Dani (22:01.71)

I need to do it in this order. These are the conditions. I need to do it at this time in this order. This is the procedure. Don't anybody get in the middle of what I'm doing.

feel so seen doing it.

Cool.

Because if you interrupt any of it, something won't

Yes. Right. Because I didn't have the tea. Which is bananas. But at the time, like when we were in this world, as you both seem to be able to relate to… Oh, yeah. What I really should have done is I should have gone to Women and Infants, which is a day program in Providence about 45 minutes away. nobody told me because nobody asked because I didn't know. Yeah, it's a mother-baby day program. We need more…

Dani (22:20.108)

That will didn't.

Emily (22:43.726)

It's an IOP, right?

programs specifically for perinatal folks, mother-baby programs. We shouldn't have to be separated for our babies for 100 reasons. And she was almost a year old by that point. She was not an infant. I mean, she was an infant, but she wasn't like itty bitty tiny. But I thought I was going to die that summer. I was like, I'm going to die. There's no way this is going to end. And then, you know, what was really interesting is that about a week before she turned one,

I got my period back and I hadn't been cycling at all through this time. Some people were like, I think you need to cycle again because your hormones are really out of whack and I think if somebody hits the reset button, you're going to start to feel a little bit better. It was kind of true.

If only we could just go you know what something feels off we're gonna go back to nineteen ninety five we're gonna push the power button on the computer turn it back on and hopefully things are functioning correctly now.

I wish we could unplug 2025 and plug it back in.

Emily (23:45.006)

That would be great. Could we start in 2024?

Or earlier, I don't know. Yeah.

And after that, I probably had another hard year and by the time she was two, it was better. But I never really had like real capital I interventions. Like the, you know, not so good or whatever good Indian girl I am, I gutted it the hell out. I was like, well, can't take meds. Don't want to go to the hospital. Just we're going to…

Yes.

White knuckling professionally. Okay, so if you didn't have a watershed moment or a intervention moment, how did like PSI end up on your radar? Because at some point you have the school and then you're going to school for social work. Does PSI come in before, during, after?

Dani (24:25.678)

You should go back to

Divya (24:34.252)

A little bit before, I'm trying to think, I think I heard about PSI in 2015 and I was involved with, by then I was doing some state advocacy stuff and I was doing those pilot programs in the community health centers. was like, you know, I created this program where we would meet women in their birthing people, rather I should say in the pediatrician's office, in the midwife office, like, hi, I'm Divya. I'm a postpartum dual and lactation counselor. I'm going to screen you with this form. How's it going?

I was doing some home visits for lactation stuff. It was awesome. So I had heard about PSI. And then I went to the conference in 2016 where I met Jibina and Desiree.

Dun dun dun, foreshadow.

knowing.

2016 that was in California.

Divya (25:19.399)

I nearly missed my flight. no! Running through the airport. Always have your orthotics in your shoes, friends.

Safety first, you know.

It was wild. Yes. If you were going to run through the airport, please wear good shoes. Have your orthotics in, particularly if you are of a certain age. I met Desiree and Jabina and we were one of the few folks of color there in these professional spaces. I had already been to some other professional spaces where I was like, my God, this place is very white. One of these things is not like the other. We met each other and we were like, we should keep in touch. We should do something.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Divya (26:00.564)

started to lay the groundwork for the Alliance. And in 2017, it became part of PSI, which was amazing and awesome. And we created something that I feel just so proud of and it's so near and to my heart. then PSI has been part of my world pretty much ever since then in the most wonderful way.

my gosh, we just heard about like the birth of the Alliance. Yeah. Great birth story.

It was. It was really about people of color finding each other in a room. I remember at the end of that conference, everything was smaller there and I feel like it felt more like a club that I didn't really belong to. Because I've always felt like I didn't belong to the club. was like, I'm not Indian enough for the Indian spaces. I always have felt like I didn't quite belong anywhere and sometimes that's hard and sometimes I'm like, how do I?

build bridges or how do I clear my own path or how do I make where I am different and more okay for me? And at the end of the conference, we were doing sort of like a feedback, like how did it go? What do you want to see next year? And I remember saying, I know that there's a breakout space, it's a closed space for folks who are survivors of psychosis. And it's wonderful that people with a specific lived experience can be with each other. Can we have a breakout space that's just for folks of color? And lot of people are like, okay.

it.

Divya (27:26.078)

people seemed receptive to that. Wendy was like, cool. That's a great idea. And then next year we had the Alliance and it was 2017 in Philly and we had that. We were able to have those spaces. was cool.

That's incredible. So when you met up with Jibina and Desiree, was it like at the end of the conference or something and you guys were like, we should just like, we're like the only like non white people here or like, like we need, we need to make club and it's going to be awesome. And there's going to be people who have experiences like us and like, you know,

exactly what we talked about, like I don't know if there was rainbows and unicorns, but I think all of us were like, why is it that race and racism and oppression is like a slide or maybe bullets on a slide when we're talking about PMADS?

Yeah, talked about by a white person up in front of everybody else.

Well, that too. If we had some sort of slogan or motto or something, was like, our lives are not a sidebar issue. Our experience are not bullets on a slide. Our experience of PMADS cannot be, you can't separate the race and racism and culture piece, right? It is how we walk through the world. It's our relationship with providers. It's, you know, if when I was like in my deep, deep, dark places,

Divya (28:44.258)

I would have been much more likely to pick up the phone and call somebody named, know, Sakina or Jabina or Marisol or just, I was like, is there a black or brown person with, you know, a name that might be a little bit more like mine? Right.

akin to not being able to take off being a woman in spaces occupied by men. It's akin to being a woman who wants to be seen by a female dermatologist or OBGYN. Like what you're saying is the same. It's part of your identity. You want to see it in the people who help you.

Take off.

Dani (29:09.89)

It is

Dani (29:20.098)

Right?

Divya (29:25.678)

Well, right. I think about this so much with just the way we talk about things like self-care. There are so many times people are like, you just need to take care of yourself. I'm like, you need to stop. You were talking earlier about what questions you wish people had asked. A question, this is not specifically about screening for PMADS, but I think it's really important to ask people, what does it mean to you to take care of yourself? What does that mean? What was modeled for you? What's your relationship with that? Because I was taught,

that self-care is for soft white people and that you are selfish if you take care of yourself and you exist to do your duty to other people. Love and family is about the normalization and glorification of struggle and sacrifice. So if someone's like, just need to take care of yourself, I'm like, we're done. You do not know me. You don't have to be a person of color necessarily, but you need to have some sort of humility or curiosity or just an awareness that

Terms that people use very quickly and as part of vernacular may mean different things to different people. I always say to people, if we share some aspects of identity, I'm not going to claim to know everything about you. I have a lot of Desi clients and I'm like, we share one aspect of our identity. I'm not the same as you. I'm not going to assume to know everything. Right. If someone's like, you know what it's like growing up in these immigrant families where everything is just really freaking hard and you just have to be striving and succeeding and clamping it all down all the time, I'm like, yep.

As a matter of fact I do

I do know what that's like. And so if you see somebody who might be able to understand those pieces that are hard, that's great. Especially when you were vulnerable as all get out, you were exhausted, you are bleeding and leaking from various parts of your body. Baby is screaming and you're like, my nipples are bleeding and I'm bleeding everywhere and I just peed my pants. And I don't really want to explain to you why self-care is not something that I have an easy relationship with.

Dani (31:15.31)

Some

Dani (31:26.424)

Right, being able to understand that without having to explain cultural implications around how you feel about self care and why it might be difficult or whatever, or why it might be difficult to even talk about why you're having a hard time.

Yes, there's a lot of guilt and shame for those of us who descended from people who struggled a lot more than we are. And I don't mean to play the oppression or the trauma hardship Olympics, but you people who descended from enslaved people or people who sought asylum in this country because they fled war, famine, genocide, partition, whatever it is. Those people went through really hard things. They're like, well, I'm feeling sad and anxious after I had a baby.

I probably shouldn't talk about that because you it's not genocide or famine or you know so like there's this horrible comparison game right.

Don't play the trauma Olympics.

Right. But what goes around comes around because we started this whole conversation off talking about we all have kids in high school. And so the landscape has changed.

Dani (32:26.478)

the fact that

So, right? Which.

does mean that things are maybe a little, if not easier, more informed. Maybe there are more data points that people are collecting. Maybe there's more information to give to someone who acts for it. That it's different, right? But it's being able to say that and understand that in that way is very different than to be able to say that and understand it in the context of being the child of immigrants.

it's okay

Dani (32:59.96)

YING

Yes. Yes. And I think that we are bringing those pieces into our conversations about PMADS. I see that more and more. I go to the PSI conference and there's not just one workshop on PMADS and people of color. There's many. And there's many on Black women and Latina women and different ethnicities and cultures because, spoiler alert, people of color, women of color are not a monolith.

Wait, really? I'm kidding. What?

man because people are like, can you talk about rates of PMADS in BIPOC communities? I'm like, what in the ever loving, what does mean?

That's like you're from Massachusetts, do you know Charlie? He's from Mass... Like what? I'm sorry.

Dani (33:47.722)

exactly what you're asking me.

Yes. Do people of color experience racism and bias within the medical system? Absolutely. Are they more likely to suffer and less likely to seek care? Absolutely. Why? Then we need to disaggregate the hell out of all of this and start again, what questions are you asking and who are you asking? I see a lot of movement here and I look at who comes to the conference, for example, and how much that's changed and we just still have a really long way to go. Yeah. Yes. A really, really long way to go. Yeah.

Yeah, that's me and PSI. Now, it's awesome to see how the Alliance has grown and all the cool things that are happening. It's really wonderful. was five years where the three of us kind of ran it with a small board, but we had a board. Then Andrea was hired in 2022 when they got a big grant to hire staff.

and then

And then suddenly it was like, you know, it felt like at that point things started changing more quickly because money, right? Like when you can fund things, it's still different faster sometimes.

Dani (34:51.699)

it's it starts

We were volunteers for five years. Yeah. We were volunteers. Yeah. And I remember, it's a funny story, in Philly in 2017, Emily, were you there? Yeah, okay. It was your first one? That was, they did the quilts that year of the women who died. And I was like boo hooing and like, they give you champagne. I forget why we're going to do-

That was my first one.

Divya (35:23.022)

why were we crying and then it was just champagne toast? I don't know what happened. I think I went to Wendy and I was like, maybe you can give me a little bit of money and I can try to get some big pieces up and running. She was very sweet and nurturing as Wendy is. She was like, it's going to take some time and we're just going to keep working on it and we're going to do it together. The three of us had a monthly meeting with Wendy for years. Sometimes you came to that, Emily and Carrie was there and Edith. Edith was amazing.

She was really, really lovely and just so dedicated and did so much for us. It was five years of those monthly meetings and we made some really good progress and then PSI got money and then it was the little engine that could kind of became its own rocket ship.

It's hard when you're there in the beginning of like, start right? And you're like, I can picture what I really want. But how to like, what is the path going to be? How long is that path going to be to get wherever that is? Because there is no, we're not there. There's no finish line. But

up like that.

Dani (36:18.7)

Get where

Yes.

Divya (36:24.718)

No, there's no finish line. And it's interesting because I feel like particularly in Asian American communities, I would see Asian American folks at the PSI conference and I was like, are you coming to the Alliance meetup? Are you coming? And they'd be like, is the Alliance for us? And I'm like, yes, it's for all of us. And there's just, I'll just be direct. I think there's a lot of like internalized racism in Asian communities, particularly anti-blackness. And for all of my

APIDA folks out there, proximate a whiteness will not keep us safe. Dismantle all of that. And I think that I tried to do a lot of that work in the role that I was in at the time. And I think there's still more of that to do. This is another place where I'm kind of like, I am sometimes the person who says things where people are like, you don't like capitalism? I'm like, no, I don't.

Yeah.

Dani (37:18.67)

Yeah, but what if people what if nobody said the things? Divya, thanks for saying the things

I'm trying to say the things. But yeah, so that's my PSI story. it is hard to start something and then not know how it's going to launch and grow. I think that a theme for me, again, has been that a lot of my paths in life with my career, my relationship to my racial identity with parenting, whatever, it's been this nonlinear kind of meandering unfolding thing. And I often feel like

I am trying to build bridges to somewhere that I don't know and clear my own path. And I feel like the Alliance has been just a part of that. If that makes sense.

bridges to somewhere that I don't know. That is like

That's it.

Divya (38:06.124)

Otherwise, I'm kind of on an island. I'm like coming back to the Venn diagram. I'm like,

Because I think when you think about like, you said at one point, feeling like you weren't enough of this or that to be able to like really occupy that space with those folks, it's almost like if you are in that center of the Venn diagram, you all lines. The lines are not theoretical. They are sometimes literal, right? They are sometimes barriers of language

that you are aware of the life.

Dani (38:40.27)

of

a slight difference in skin tone or that

What fur.

totally. mean, even that hypomanic, ironically, that was an Indian doctor. It was so, there's just layers and layers. There's like lots of like peeling layers of an onion and, you know, figuring all this out. But I was like, you had never seen somebody of our ethnicity present the way I did. And I was so wild and out of character for you that you thought I was hypomanic. I was like, I know exactly what's happening.

that psychiatrist who thought I was.

Divya (39:13.678)

But there isn't anybody else that I can explain this to because I'm in my little Venn diagram. I'm like, I'm just so weird.

You're just a f***ing f***ing f***ing

Just so did-

Just in my little Venn diagram, yeah. The center of the flower.

All right, tell us before we change subjects, what are you doing to support folks today? Now, obviously, the Alliance has been handed off to capable, highly capable, intimidatingly capable hands.

Divya (39:40.716)

There was so wonderful.

Mm-hmm.

but I know that you're working as a therapist. Are you still seeing folks in this period? What's, what's happening for you?

today. yes. So I am a therapist. I primarily see folks in the perinatal period through early parenting. Some people have elementary, early, young teenagers too. I mostly see folks of color, folks of culture, folks with proximity to immigration. And most of the work we do is peeling the layers of the onion and processing how all of these things show up in the context of the transition to parenthood and early parenting. A lot of the stuff that I've

dumped out here are those pieces of like, the normalization of struggle and sacrifice and don't take care of yourself and I have to be doing things a certain way. Parenting can be so triggering, right? It's like everybody's got like the hornet's nest and parenthood is like, or the closet is like packed full and empty and like the closet door falls open and there's crap everywhere and most of it, most of what therapy is is we're like, wow, what is this thing? What is this box?

Dani (40:48.394)

Like the lid fell off of this box and now there's

There are bees in here. Are you aware you had bees in a box in your closet?

You're like, I thought I put those away or I did not even know that those were there.

No, but they're here now and to go with the metaphor, sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's just a mess. I will never show you what's on either side of this screen. But when you start to stub your toes on the box and you're like, I can't walk through my hallway because then we're like, we need to move this box. And a lot of it is like, what is in here? Do we want to make meaning out of this or how can we put it away in a way that feels okay and sustainable? We can't erase it, but how do we want to understand it differently?

Yeah.

Divya (41:30.516)

it's a lot of making sense of things like identity and culture and trauma, attachment trauma, intergenerational trauma, interpersonal trauma, all these narratives, figuring out how to make sense of all of it.

were big proponents of therapy here in the podcast studio. I didn't even make connections to experiences in my life until I became a parent and then was like, these kids are so difficult, you know, and then you start talking about, why is this coming up for you over and over? Let's talk about over. Do remember like a time in your life? And I'm like, my God, suddenly I'm transported to being seven years old and this memory that just keeps coming back up. And here I am doing EMDR and there you go. Anyway.

Like I'm done tripping over this box. Yeah.

EMDR is a great way to put the box Yes, it is. And good for you because the therapist, I it's like, when have you felt this before, Dani? Does it remind you of

And then I'm like, I was six and a half and I don't want to talk about it, but I've chosen to be here today. Fine.

Divya (42:34.21)

Right. I hate to be this person who is always… When I go to my own therapy, I'm like, well, my attachment, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, why am I always flipping talking about attachment? I'm like, because attachment is so important. For those of us who… Spoiler alert, many of us are sitting in these chairs because our attachment is wonky. I feel like a lot of what I have done personally and professionally is to figure out my own way and…

Mm.

Divya (43:00.502)

I love being able to bear witness for people who are doing that too. You all know there's no magic stuff. We don't have magic wands and fast forward buttons, but what do do? We bear witness and we help people make a meaning. I'm always like, don't hold heavy, hard things by yourself.

Right, don't. yeah. Your pockets are full of really heavy rocks. Why are you walking around with all of those? Also, are those all yours?

This is my guilt and shame that I'm not ready to get rid of.

Yeah. How's that going for you?

Heavy, my pants are falling off.

Dani (43:39.214)

Okay.

Emily (43:43.438)

I'm just saying if you had rocks in anyway.

Yeah, that's like what I… My goal is to help people feel like if somebody else is on the, how do I do this? What does it all mean? How do I build the bridge to nowhere? I'm like, I got you. The thing that I'm really trying to do is I'm trying to finish a book proposal for a workbook that's specifically geared towards children of immigrants around the parenting journey. Maybe I…

maybe keep this in to keep me accountable because I'm like, I really believe in it. I don't think there's anything like that out there and it's what I do. Yeah. It's I want to kind of make that happen. Yeah. But perimenopausal brain fog and activation energy is like, that's real, man.

So how long have you been working on this little project?

I've been thinking about it for maybe...

Emily (44:37.87)

three years.

should we do like a weekly check-in? Like Divya? It's us again.

We'll text you and be like, have you done any homework?

She's gonna be like, I hate them.

No, seriously, need people to help me. But there's always something, right? Like I wrote an essay here and there, I wrote something here and there, but I'm like, I really, I believe in this thing. I know I'm working on the proposal because I believe, I really believe in it. I need to just get my act together. That's it. Yes. Trying to use like clean language is like, whoa, thesaurus.

Dani (45:08.012)

Yeah, I was like, I didn't think she was going to say act. It's cool. Whatever. I thought you did.

I did.

the Rolodex of alt words from the good place.

Mother forging shirt. Exactly. Okay. Is there anything else you'd like to chat about, Octavia? That we didn't ask about or you thought, you know what?

forking shirt balls.

Emily (45:21.902)

So good.

place.

Are we ready for a lightning round?

Divya (45:35.436)

I don't think so. I think I covered it. I often am like, I'm between two places. I'm trying to figure it out. I often look at all these different groups of people. like, I don't really belong here. Sometimes it's okay. Also, there's a little bit of radical acceptance. Anyway, I love what I do. I feel incredibly lucky every day. I love my clients. I love my job. Every day I wake up and I feel so incredible.

incredibly lucky and grateful. It's such an honor and a privilege to sit with people and to listen to their stories and what they think about and worry about and wonder about. I feel I love my job. I feel like the luckiest person that I get to do this.

Yeah, there's your sign for, you know, am I doing the right thing? Yeah, I Tiffy is doing the right thing.

Also, especially now, especially in this climate where everything feels so horrible and out of our control, it reminds me of the early COVID days, right? Everyone's like, my God. And I'm like, I know, man, me too, girl. I'm buckled up. Don't hold it alone. We have the power of our relationships and our relationships are so important and powerful. And that's where we can feel whole and like ourselves.

Yeah. Yeah. I know there are like a number of therapists we've talked to who their clients, obviously, you know, their buckets are getting filled by going to therapy and the therapist buckets are getting filled by doing the thing, you know, supporting folks anyway. I mean, shameless plug. Are you like taking new clients or?

Divya (47:01.528)

Not really. I'm a little full. And I am trying to set good boundaries so I can work on this proposal.

You know what? Don't even think about reaching out to Dovea. I'm just kidding. Unavailable. She's busy. She's got to write a book.

do some speaking stuff. Okay. It was cool. Microsoft reached out to me a few weeks ago and they're like Asian employee resource group. And so I came and did a talk on mental health and intergenerational trauma. It's APIDA, Asian Pacific Islander, they see American heritage month. And it's perinatal mental health awareness month. I hope that like I have like, here's my intersection. Right.

I'm really booked up this month, you know.

You're like.

Emily (47:43.886)

You

May is usually busy. Yeah. In a good way.

Well, thanks for like hanging out with us. It's like the end of May. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. It's a wild month. She made time for us. Yes, she did. We feel really special. Are we ready for a-

For you ladies, anything.

Divya (47:58.52)

Thank you for having me.

Emily (48:04.622)

lightning round?

Jivia, it's not rapid fire, don't worry. Okay, besides this podcast, do you have another favorite podcast or if you don't like the word favorite, do you listen to podcasts? Something that you'd like to recommend to our listeners?

too dumb for podcasts. I can't pay attention. Take that!

too dumb for podcasts.

I can't focus. I can't focus. I know I should try it again.

Dani (48:31.374)

Okay, Divya's actually really smart.

But clients recommend podcasts. They're like, have to listen to this thing. There was one client who was like, I know you don't listen to podcasts, but you have to do this. And I was like, okay. And it was a couple of years ago, I was recovering from COVID actually. And it was this amazing podcast about healing racial trauma with the use of psychedelics. And she was like, yeah, listen to this. And I did, and I have no idea what it was, but really interesting. Of course, Dr. Kat's podcast, Perinatal, is always.

Mom and mine, we love Dr.

and healing the tigress.

God yes!

Dani (49:09.55)

that Jasmine mentoring in the peer mentor program way back in the day, like early pandemic, like 2020, like second cohort ever maybe. And we kind of kept in touch and then she came on our podcast and she's like, my friend and I are going to start a podcast. We're thinking about it. And I was like, yes. man. Their conversations are amazing.

Yes.

Divya (49:28.782)

And so powerful and really highlighting the intersection of Asian identity and perinatal mental health. I met Jasmine, my gosh, I think it was in 2023. It was actually the day my mother's death anniversary. Andrea asked Jasmine and Shivani and I to do a panel on like the intersection of Asian American Heritage Month and perinatal mental health awareness month. And I was like, normally I would say, no, this is the day that I protect. But I was like, absolutely, I'm going to say yes, because we need to do this. And it was, I met Jasmine and Shivani on that panel.

Both so lovely. We love both of them.

Love both of those ladies.

Great podcast recommendations. Thank you. All right.

Are you currently binge watching or reading or listening? Maybe listening is not your favorite medium.

Dani (50:14.659)

What?

Music is the thing that I listen to, so I'm very much a music person, like I said. The book that I recommend that I read relatively recently that I just could not put down, like I wanted to eat it, is this book called, you know, don't you ever feel that way? You're like, I want to devour something. Yeah. It's a book called House of Caravans by Shilpi. I'm blanking on her last name. She's local. She lives in Boston or Cambridge.

But it is a beautiful, like sweeping epic novel. It's a historical fiction based in the time of partition. And I believe that it's based on the story of her grandfather who lived in Lahore in the 1940s. It's hard. There are some parts that are hard to read, you cannot put the book down. She's a gorgeous, gorgeous writer. Oh. Again? House of Caravans.

state the title again.

Got it. We'll put links to all this stuff in the shit notes. Divya, do you have a favorite parenting hack? Boom! Our job here is done. Yeah, seriously.

Divya (51:11.832)

Go to therapy.

Divya (51:18.228)

It's triggering. It's hard. Kids will push your buttons. You cannot co-regulate for shit if you cannot get your own ish together. Co-regulating is probably the most important thing we do as parents.

Mm-hmm.

Dani (51:31.97)

Don't wait till it feels like an emergency, Every other week. Let's go. Yep.

Yes.

Thank

What is one way that you're going to show yourself a little radical love today, Divya? Radical. We're going to use the word radical again. mean, radical can mean whatever you feel like.

know about radical. I did workout this morning and exercise is my like, that's my deep, deep non-negotiable self-care. I'm doing this strength class for women over 40 is amazing. Oh. Yeah. Yes, because we need to lift weight as we get older. We need it. Muscle mass goes down. Yep.

Dani (52:01.656)

Cool. Okay. Cool.

Dani (52:10.798)

Also doesn't it like help with your like bone density and stuff too?

It does. It is good for many reasons. And that to me, I'm like, I want to lift heavy weights. I do not need to run. cannot run anymore. But I'm like, I want to lift heavy.

I heard that Divya lifted like 800 pounds today. I'm kidding. That's what I heard.

I like to start cool rumors like that.

It's like a humble brag. Put that on today's thumbnail.

Divya (52:38.638)

No, it's really good. My body likes that.

If you could jump in a time machine and go back to one of those, I don't know, needing help moments, what would you say to pre-recovery you?

deep.

Divya (52:53.934)

Oh, God. Oh, my gosh, that's a really good one. And I didn't really think in advance about this one.

You're going to be good off the cuff, I think.

I think I would say that everything is going to work out in a way that you may not have anticipated that it would work out. And it may work out in a bizarre and nonlinear, like meandering way, but like it will be okay. And you will also continue to recover. That's what I would say too, that like recovery is really, it's circular and nonlinear and you will come back to pieces of it again and again and again. And that's okay. And it's part of the journey. think about,

Judith Herman and her seminal work, Trauma and Recovery, know, that stage one is safety and stabilization. We need to make sure that you're like okay and emotions and body and stage two is remembrance and mourning. there's a lot of looking back and making meaning and about things that we lost, things we didn't understand, things that we didn't get, things that we needed. There will be a lot of that and that's okay. And different iterations will look different and that's also okay.

Bam! That was great. We should make like a compilation of all of the things that I'll far guess have to say to pre-recovery them because whew.

Divya (54:04.878)

That would be amazing for, you know, maternal mental health awareness month of like, these are all the messages that people have.

It's may twenty third we're having my moments now for content that we should have.

We've got 11 months.

There'll be another May.

because it's nonlinear and it comes back around.

Divya (54:23.886)

The calendar. I see what you did.

It's fine. You know what though? We support folks every single month. Emily, would you like to ask this question? This is your favorite question.

How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles. Flavor, no flavor. Ice, no ice.

temperature. We like to make sure people are, you know, hydrated and stuff. So I

Very well hydrated. excellent. I do not like bubbles. I do not like flavor. And I do not like ice unless it is very, very, very hot outside. In fact, I often want my water a little bit warm.

Dani (54:58.318)

That's actually easier for your body, like easier on your body, right?

The people who'd put ice in their water in the winter?

Yeah, that's so weird. I don't know.

Your face, Emily, you cannot manage yourself.

I was like, god, it's me. For anybody listening and not watching the video, Emily and I are hiding behind our hands. Yeah, we both are ice people. know. Please don't judge us.

Divya (55:22.4)

No, no, no. I was going to say, our fridge died last summer and we got a new fridge and it has an ice doohickey and a fridge water doohickey. There are two humans in my house who just love the ice and the fridge water and another human and I are like…

Yeah, don't even get my cup near that. Don't even think about it.

No, maybe when it is 98 degrees in July and we're like dripping, maybe. But no, I want it a little bit warm. And also sometimes I want it like hot. I want to drink hot water. And Emily, you're like, can't.

Or like going just like plain. Listen, everybody likes it differently. OK.

without flavor or... ...for beans?

Divya (56:05.806)

I'm okay with being alone in my Venn diagram here. I'm like, I'm alone with my water, so come at me, fools. Yes, that's my me and my.

Awesome. Divya, if anything resonated with folks by listening to this podcast and they would like to get a hold of you, is there a way to get a hold of you? Would you like to not be gotten a hold?

Like don't call Divya, she'll call you.

What is your preference?

know. Anybody can call me. I'm just not, I can't like take a bunch of new people right now. But you can Google me and you'll find the website and there's like a contact me button. I think it's diviacumar, L-I-C-S-W.com is the website. And for those of you who are on the socials, my Instagram is both Brown and Therapist because we do hold many things at the same time.

Dani (56:59.084)

Yeah, there you are.

You are at the intersection.

Trying to do it, girl.

Yep. Okay, Emily. Well, I think that about wraps it up. Would you like to take us out? I would. Okay. Okay.

Divya, have known you, I have known of you, have been following your work since 2014 or 2015. And when we were very first, you know, with babies and like trying to figure out what was happening for us.

Dani (57:21.553)

when

Dani (57:25.26)

Babies with

about what was happening. I always will love.

these conversations with you because you say profound things and it evolved because we're always growing. So thank you so much.

They're all

Divya (57:42.606)

Emily, someone cut onions in here? I grew up with onions being cut around me and so usually I'm okay, but that's really sweet. And it's been such an honor to know you through these years and through our iterations of doing what we do professionally and also being who we are as women and moms and parents of humans who teach us so much and hold up the mirror and we make sense and meaning of all of it.

It's always great to talk to you about the real. You're always somebody who has heard the real things and the hard things and let me say all the stuff that I wanted to say. And I'll say, especially as a brown woman, you are like a white woman in my pantheon of white women who just flip and get it and who let me be whole. So thank you, Emily. Thank you both for having me, Dani, Emily. It's so nice to be here with you both.