I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

DIVYA KUMAR - I AM ONE Bush-Whacking Bridge-Builder to Places I've Never Been

• Episode 50

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On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the incomparable Divya Kumar - a Perinatal Mental Health-Certified psychotherapist, writer, speaker, co-founder of what is now The Alliance for People of Color & longtime friend of PSI! We’ll chat all about the complexities of perinatal mental health at all kinds of intersections (I’m gesturing vaguely – there are just so many intersections). We’ll touch on the evolution of support systems, the need for cultural sensitivity in mental health care, & the significance of building bridges for better understanding and support. The list goes on. You don’t want to miss this one. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Divya.

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Dani

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast. On today's episode, we're sitting down with the incomparable Vivia Kumar, a perinatal mental health certified psychotherapist, writer, speaker, co-founder of what is now the Alliance for People of Color, and longtime friend of PSI. We'll chat all about the complexities of perinatal mental health at all kinds of intersections. I'm gesturing vaguely because there are just so many intersections. We'll touch on the evolution of support systems, the need for cultural sensitivity in mental health care, and the significance of building bridges for better understanding and support, among other things. You don't want to miss this one. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Divia. Divya, welcome to the podcast studio. We are so thrilled to be spending the next hour of our day with you. I think that today we are experiencing near-perfect conditions for recording. Uh it's Friday. Did I mention it's almost the weekend? The third thing I want to mention is both sides of my face are back to uh full working order after a little dental work on Wednesday. And I think that the listeners should know this was cracking us up before we started recording. Totally my fault. There's a little scheduling mix-up about our recording day. And um, yeah, I could not pronounce anything with more than two syllables a couple days ago. So it was it's great that we are recording today and not Wednesday. But I digress. This episode is not about me. It is about you. So, Divya, welcome to the studio. Sitting down with you is the highlight of our week, FYI.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you for having me. It's so nice to be here. And I'm so glad that both sides of your face are not numb and they're working. And it's all the scheduling is just, I don't know, it's just life.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Whatever.

SPEAKER_01

It's all good. It's so great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Emily

Thanks for saying yes. Yeah, thanks for clearing your schedule for us.

Dani

It's hard.

Emily

Oh my god.

Dani

It is.

Emily

It's hard, but we gotta do it. So, oh, Emily.

Dani

Oh, I well, I was gonna You look like you are ready to go.

Emily

Divya, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself? Like name, pronouns, astrological sign, favorite pizza topping, whatever. Oh okay.

SPEAKER_01

Can I talk about that for an hour? No, just kidding.

Emily

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um so I'm Divya. If you my mother would be like, teach the American people how to say the soft D. And so if you are a soft D person, you can say Vivia. You can say either way you want. It's okay. I have two children. Oh my god, my son is gonna be 18 in June, which is wild. He's about to graduate from high school, which is just like uncanny. Oldest? Oldest. Okay. Yeah. And then my daughter is uh in ninth grade. She's 15, she'll be 16 in September. She's like an old ninth grader because of our school cutoff. I live in Jamaica Plain, which is a neighborhood in Boston. I am a child of Indian immigrants. I grew up in Connecticut, so I'm sort of in between. Like, I think the theme of that I'll probably talk about a lot is how I'm sort of in between places. Like my parents were immigrants. I was born here. My husband is white. Uh, we had these multiracial, multicultural, multi-multi-everything kids. What else? What do I like on my pizza? We like veggies on pizza. I am a Pisces, so I have many feelings and opinions, and just I have there's like a lot of intense emotional stuff, dreamy, you know. I like to knit, I like to bake. I was gonna wear my drink water, love hard, fight racism shirt, but it was all like below my boobs, and so I was gonna have to be like this, and nobody really needs all that.

SPEAKER_02

So I have my alliance shirt on.

unknown

Alliant!

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I like music, I like singing. Oh. Sometimes I really like being with my kids, sometimes I don't. You know, I like the beach, I like water, Pisces.

Dani

Do you sing in the car or a choir or all the above? Or like how do you like to sing?

SPEAKER_01

I like my singing anyway. So okay. But I yeah, music has always been a really big part of my life. Um, I sang a cappella when I was in high school and college, and I wrote music and played guitar and sang for years. And my husband and I met each other because we both like music and did all this music stuff in college. And so it's been in and out of my life. And now my daughter really likes music, so it's really fun because we can play guitar and sing songs together.

Dani

And our listeners are in for a treat today because Divya and her family are about to sing a song. I'm just kidding. Never mind.

SPEAKER_02

I'm joking. I'm kidding.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, no, it's really fun because um no, my daughter and I will sing like Boy Genius and Katie Gavin and all that stuff. Oh, nice. It's really fun.

Dani

Yeah, it's it's a fun time with her. That's cool. That was a great intro. Um, Divya, can you tell us what role, if any, I'm suspecting there is a role that perinatal mental health disorders complications have played in your life personally, professionally. What would you like to share?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, all right. Well, ladies. Yes. Um well, it's interesting because my kids are a little bit older, right? And I don't know, kind of, I don't know. Sometimes when I'm in the perinatal mental health world, there's a lot of people who are like who have like really small children, and it it's I feel like the field has evolved so much since when my kids were little, and that's it's a good thing. But um, it's interesting because I look at people who are new parents now and I'm like, dang, we're talking about things professionally that we just didn't at the time, which is good. And you know, the therapist to me is like, and then we have grief and loss and we mourn the things that we did not have and all that. That's such an iterative process. And I feel like I talk to clients about that and I experienced that myself because like there was no alliance, for example, when I had my kids in 2007 and 2009, and the perinatal mental health field was everything I saw was really white, and I can get back to that in a minute. But um, anyway, so to answer your question, personally, uh, oh my gosh, like the personal piece, like kind of shaped the professional piece, that that makes sense, as it did, I think, for many of us who identify survivors who sit in this seat with y'all.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I just think about how many professionals I saw when I was struggling, like when I was just like in the pit, particularly after my daughter when I really struggled. Um, and I think about who asked the right questions and who didn't, who even asked questions and who didn't. I think about how many times I went to the PCP's office and I saw a nurse practitioner there. I was having these weird, irregular heartbeats. And I came and other like weird somatic things, not weird, but they felt weird to me at the time. And I came in with a baby and the snap and go in the little bucket thing, and I was wearing purple sweatpants that were literally covered with fire truck stickers.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It was clear that I had an infant who was with me and I was covered in stickers, which if you know anything, and chances are, oh, you have another small child at home. Right. There's a toddler in the mix. There's a toddler who like would do anything, like if I just put fire truck stickers in anywhere near him because he was two and a half. I went to that office so many times and I was like, I my heart feels weird. This this is weird. I don't know. I don't know. Nobody was like, How are you really doing? What else is going on with you? She's like, There's nothing wrong with your life. Like they just like listen and they're like, sounds great. We can give you a holter monitor, we can do this. And I was like, and I think about the professionals who did help me at the time and how amazing they were and how much more care I needed. What questions were asked, which questions were not asked. I was never ever completely honest. There were flickerings of times where I came close to being honest, and I got some like very, very sort of deep compassion. And also, like, I think I was so in pain and so deeply, like just really struggling that like I didn't know how to let people come near me and I didn't know how to come near people in that pain. And I always felt like I had no real options and I felt very stuck. And that experience really informed where I went professionally, right? I've always been this person in between a bunch of different worlds, like a bridge builder and a connector. I went to public health school out of undergrad and I ended up doing a mix of like macro, like programmatic stuff and also micro like advocacy for survivors of violence stuff. I created a program for violence prevention response at MIT because I was like, we need this. I'm always a person who's like, hey, we need a thing, let's make a thing. And I'm often like the person who was like largely by myself, maybe with somebody else being like, let's make a thing. There's a need, let's make a thing. Yeah. I quit that job. I had all my PMEDs. It was terrible. And um, I started running new parents groups in my community and became a postpartum dual and a lactation counselor. And you can't really take the public health out of the girl. And I was like, we should embed all this stuff where people are. And I helped create a pilot program in local community health centers, and that was really cool. And with a couple other colleagues, I created something called the Every Mother Project, which doesn't really exist anymore, but it was cool at the time where we did all these trainings and we had a toolkit for any perinatal professional to learn about PMADs and screen for PMADs, like tuition counselors, travel with educators, yoga teachers, blah, blah, blah, blah, doulas, whatever. In like 2015 or so, I started looking around and realizing that I was one of the only people of color in the room talking about PMADs, talking about perinatal mental health. And if there were other people of color there, chances are I was the only Asian American person, only Vasi person, right? And sometimes in the various roles that I had in the jobs that I had, people would be like, Do you know a black therapist? Do you know a clinician of color? And I was like, I can help you find one, but it's kind of hard to find that person. Um, and you know, I started to really see the more of a need for that. And so in 2016, I applied to social work school. It was also really hard to do the job that I was doing. And I remember going out to dinner with my husband, and I was like, Why didn't I get an MSW out of undergrad? And he was like, You could go back to school.

SPEAKER_02

And I was like, you know, like she says, and when Harry met Sally, but I'm gonna be 40.

Emily

Like eventually.

SPEAKER_01

No, I I think I was 39 at the time. Like I was gonna be 40. And he was like, Well, my mom went back to get her doctorate when my sister and I were 12 and 10. Like go back to school. And so I went back to school to be a social worker and to be a brown perinatal therapist that I saw a need for. So I needed a therapist like me. I needed a therapist, like, and too many people needed a therapist, not like me, but like needed, we just need, I've always said, like, we need more of us. Yes. And I also like coming back to the personal piece, it has always been my goal, and I'll say this anytime you give me a microphone, that every single person who touches a birthing parent, birthing person or new parent, rather, should be able to know what PMADs are, what did they look like? How do you talk to somebody about them? What are the resources? There were just too many people that I interacted with who are like, you're fine, you're you're okay. Like, what you they didn't ask me the right questions.

Emily

Because this the scale upon which we were being measured at that time was like, are you unable to get out of bed? Are you disassociated from reality? If not, then you're just hyper-vigilant. You're doing a great job.

Dani

Like, sorry that the anxiety is debilitating or whatever, but was it either like people were thinking it, oh, it's baby blues, it'll go away, or it was an emergency and there was nothing in between or I mean, I think it took me a long time to get some help.

SPEAKER_01

Like I've always been like an anxious person. Like I always you y'all seen The Good Place, you know that show? Yeah. When I don't have anxiety or back pain, I'm like, oh, it's a good place. I'm just like a little, I'll run a little anxious. And I run a little anxious. A therapist that I saw after my daughter was born, one of like the greatest gifts she ever gave me, because I was like, I'm just very anxious. I have to be less anxious. I spent my whole life trying to be less anxious. She was like, Everybody's got it crazy, honey. You know, maybe you're a little anxious. Like you spend a lot of time trying really hard not to be anxious. Maybe you're a little anxious. And I'm also like, oh you know.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

When you're pulling on a tug of rope warp rope really hard, sometimes the best thing you can do is just let go of the rope. Yeah. So I knew that I was, I knew I had some anxiety. I was seeing a therapist before my son was born. She was not the right person for me. She really wanted me to do mindfulness. I kind of don't, uh it's not really for me. And she was like, you need to meditate, you need to do mindfulness. And she couldn't meet me where I was, if that makes sense. Yeah. And then I was like, fine, I'm not gonna go back to you. You're not helpful for me because I'm also a child of immigrants, and I'm like, everything's always hard. You just everything's hard because it's Friday. Things are hard.

SPEAKER_02

It's just you're supposed to like white knuckle through things and suck it up and not really complain.

SPEAKER_01

And then after my daughter was born, I quit that job that I loved, and then I really, really struggled. I had a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety. I had a lot of OCD that nobody diagnosed. Oh, yeah. I did not know what it was. Same for me. I'm so sorry. That's that's that sucks that we all struggle. Right.

Emily

Was yours like in your head? It was like the thoughts and the around and around in this way.

SPEAKER_01

It was that in a lot of compulsions and a lot of rituals. And I did not understand it. Nobody asked the right questions. Nobody asked the questions. And I knew that, like, I'm just gonna say something, like if my daughter were here. So we don't say crazy anymore, right? Because I'm like, if that's crazy, and she's like, that's ableist, and you're a therapist and you should know better, duke better. And I'm like, we've taught you, taught you kids well. Dang. She got me. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's hard to be.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, she's great, but it's hard to be around her sometimes. Um anyway, there's my brain. But um, I will say now when I look back, I'm like, that ish was cuckoo bonkers, like so cuckoo bonkers. And like, I think I hid some of it well. I don't know how much I hid really well, but I knew how to like spread my weird stuff out so that some people might have seen some things, but other people didn't see all the things. A lot of it was out around breastfeeding. And some of it was around cleanliness, but a lot of it was around nursing because I had some nursing trouble and then I got very fixated in that. Oh. And nobody asked me the right questions to help me figure it out. Like I look back now when I went to the lactation consultant, when I went to the acupuncturist, when I went to the therapist, all the people that I sort of split and asked different things to, I really wish that somebody had like put everybody in the room together and been like, okay, honey, we need to figure out what's going on because you're having a whole bunch of different conversations with all of us. And we're concerned in a whole bunch of different ways. Can we get to the bottom of what might be going on here in order to figure out how to get you the help that you needed?

Dani

What are some questions that you wish that you had been asked?

SPEAKER_01

Why are you doing what you're doing? What are you really worried about here? What is your deep worry? If you don't do this, if you don't take this one supplement or if you don't drink this one extra cup of tea, if you don't drink all four of these glasses of water, if you drink three, what will happen?

Emily

Oh. Because they just look like systems or habits to the outside observer, right?

SPEAKER_01

And I am a person with systems and habits around specific things. If I look back now, I had a whole bunch of obsessive compulsive tendencies all through life, as many of us do. And if I as a therapist, I'm kind of like, I'm not, I don't really care about what a diagnosis is. Uh that's all like some colonized crap that we don't really need to get into. I care about what you're experiencing as a person.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Right. If you cannot, like if it takes you half an hour to take all your supplements and drink all your teas and like do specific things that you need to do, that is interfering with your life. Yeah.

Dani

Is that getting in the way? Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_01

It's getting in the way. But nope, I was able to hide some things and I certainly it was I knew that what I was doing was weird and like not normal. And but I was like, I can't talk about this. This is just very bizarre. And like I look back now, I'm like, I was a tinder box. I had like a whole bunch of coping stuff that I had developed all through childhood because you just develop stuff and you hide it. And again, the immigrant stuff, the white knuckling, the like, we good here, you know, my parents like capital S struggled. So like everything everything's fine.

Dani

And if you talk about it, then that is shameful.

SPEAKER_01

It's shameful, and it's also like just like what is going on with you?

Dani

Like you don't have it together.

SPEAKER_01

Well, what is what's interesting also, though, is I I felt very, very seen by like a South Asian therapy account on Instagram. I don't know what one it was. I have a mixed relationship with social media. But there was this um, I don't know what the word is. It was like a you know, image meme? It wasn't a meme. Infographic? Infographic, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

It's like I'm like Gen X Madlibs. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01

Give me a plural noun, quick. But with like all of these faces and like the things that the aunties would say, like all the superstitious, don't cut your nails after dark, like make sure that you do this, all these like weird, superstitious crap that we grew up with. And I was like, ha ha ha, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_02

Relate, relate, relate, swipe.

SPEAKER_01

And it's like all of this was a breeding ground for anxiety and OCD because we were taught that the world was arbitrary and we had to do random meet me in order to make sure that something bad wouldn't happen. And you were like, And I was like, I feel targeted, dude. I feel targeted. I was like, oh okay. So this I was a tinder box and then I had these babies.

Emily

And you were standing at intersections. Yes. If life is a Venn diagram, Divya is in the center of the diagrams, trying to make sure all the people in this circle and in this circle and in this circle are feeling seen or understood or whatever. And and it's like you're holding space for people who aren't even sharing your space. Right.

SPEAKER_01

And I think what's interesting now, you're you're totally right, Emily. And this is what you were talking about a second ago. There was no mirror for anything that I was going through, right? There was not like I was not like a sad white lady with a golden retriever looking out the window and like, I'm sad. I have postpartum depression. Which isn't to make fun of anybody in those images, but I was like, that is not me. I am very anxious.

Emily

You're waiting to see you, to see something that felt like you.

SPEAKER_01

Right. And I was like, why is all this? And when I did start seeing like the blogs, this is like the mommy blog era, right? I was like, I can't do any of this because this is not me. And everybody started talking about PMADs and postborn depression and postborn anxiety, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm not like you. Like, I have a whole other set of things that are like layered on top of this brown body. And so it was great to see people talk about this stuff. And uh also my stuff was different. And I had like the OCD was so so prominent for me. I wasn't just sad, I was like trapped in like this world of stuff. Yes. Sorry, I just took you on an affect journey. Ha, thanks for the breath, Danny.

Dani

I like going on trips. That was adventurous. I like that.

Emily

Okay. At what point was there like a watershed moment? Was there a tipping point? Like, how did you get to the this is untenable? Andor I have, if not a diagnosis, a set of language that I can use to explain the thing? That's a good question.

SPEAKER_01

Um, there is not really a watershed moment. It was more sort of like this trickle. Like, I started seeing a therapist when my daughter was, I don't know, maybe four or five months old. She was so lovely. She's in my pantheon of lovely people, kind, warm. She helped me a lot with some stuff around my son. My son was a very difficult infant and toddler. And so that was part of the thing that was hard is I not only felt terrible, my son was really challenging. And her um oldest kid was also kind of like this. And she was like, I get it, honey, you're amazing. Like a lot of people just don't understand what it's like to have a kid like this. And I was like, okay. But um, there wasn't a lot more that she could do. And I also wasn't telling the truth about what was going on, which was part of it was me, but part of it, I was just felt like I was so crazy that everybody was gonna think that I was so crazy. And if somebody was like, Oh, you have OCD, this is a thing, it would have been a little bit better. But I was like, I'm crazy in a way that nobody's talking about. So I'm over here on my like crazy island.

Dani

Oh, like before you went into your appointments, did you have like screeners that were like, Are you feeling sad? or how many days this week have you? Blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, well, nobody asked me, like, do you have a specific like routine and ritual that you have to do every day around your fluid intake? That is very specific, right? It's very like, but that's why, like, it and and I hit it really well in some ways. Maybe somebody who knew me at the time, they might be like, We knew that you had trouble. We didn't know exactly what was going on. I did try to take meds, I couldn't tolerate them. And so that was really hard. Uh, I also saw a psychiatrist who was like, We think that you have hypomania and you have a mood disorder. And I I don't have hypomania. I just have a lot of affect, and I'm gonna present a certain way when I'm uncomfortable and I'm like, hey, everything's okay, and I'm depressed, and I'm kind of anxious.

Dani

She didn't look depressed to me. I think that you're not alone. I mean, there are many reasons why people might not share how they're actually feeling inside, you know, especially at the doctor's office, right? I mean, I straight up lied on on those screening. You know, I was like, um, but what happens though if I tell how I'm actually feeling?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

Dani

I didn't even tell my family though.

SPEAKER_01

Oh. Like, you know. And I think if I'm honest and I know now, uh, and it maybe I knew then. I don't know what I knew. It's weird. I probably should have been hospitalized, but I did not want to be hospitalized because I had all this breastfeeding stuff and I knew that I would be away from the baby. And I was like, well, I can't do that.

Dani

Was it like difficulty like with production or latching or all the things?

SPEAKER_01

It was at that point, it was really in my head. I think I had all these like letdown problems. And I but I had all these very specific rituals around what I had to do around breastfeeding.

Dani

I need to do it in this order, these are the conditions, I need to do it at this time, in this order, this is the procedure. Don't anybody get in the middle of what I'm doing.

Emily

I feel so scene danced. Yes. Cool. Because if you interrupt any of it, something won't work. Yes. That will be why it didn't Right. Because I didn't have the tea.

SPEAKER_05

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

Which is bananas. But at the time, like when we're in this world, as you both seem to be able to relate to. Oh yeah. What I really should have done is I should have gone to Women and Infants, which is a day program in Providence, um, about 45 minutes away. But nobody told me because nobody asked, because I I didn't know. And it's an IOP, right? Yeah, it's a mother-baby day program. We need more programs specifically for perinatal folks, mother-baby programs. We shouldn't have to be separated for our babies for a hundred reasons. And she was almost a year old by that point. She was not an infant. I mean, she was an infant, but she wasn't like itty bitty tiny. But I thought I was gonna die that summer. I was like, I'm gonna die. There's no way this is gonna end. And then, you know what was really interesting is that about a week before she turned one, I got my period back and I hadn't been cycling at all through this time. And it was really, and some people were like, I think you're you need to cycle again because your hormones are really out of whack. And I think if somebody hits the reset button, you're gonna start to feel a little bit better. And it was kind of true.

Dani

If only we could just go, you know what? Something feels off. We're gonna go back to 1995. We're gonna push the power button on the computer, turn it back on, and hope for the best. Like hopefully uh things are functioning correctly now. I wish we could unplug 2025 and plug it back in. Oh, so that would be great.

Emily

Could we start in 2024?

Dani

Or earlier. I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And after that, I I probably had another hard year. And by the time she was two, it was better. But I never really had like real capital I interventions. Like the, you know, not so good or whatever good Indian girl I am, I gutted it the hell out. I was like, well, can't take meds.

SPEAKER_02

Don't want to go to the hospital, just we're gonna Yes.

Emily

White knuckling professionally.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

Emily

Okay, so if you didn't have a watershed moment or an intervention moment, how did like PSI end up on your radar? Because at some point you have the you should go back to school and then you're going to school for social work. Does PSI come in before, during, after?

SPEAKER_01

A little bit before. I'm trying to think. I think I heard about PSI in 2015. And I was, I was involved with um, by then I was doing some state advocacy stuff, and I was doing those pilot programs in the community health center. So I was like, you know, I created this program where we would meet women in their birthing people, rather, I should say in the pediatrician's office, in the midwife office, like, hi, I'm Divya. I'm a postpartum dual and lactation counselor. I'm gonna screen you with this form. How's it going? I was doing some home visits for lactation stuff. It was awesome. So I had heard about PSI, and then um I went to the conference in 2016 where I met Jabina and Desiree. Dun dun dun foreshadowing.

Emily

2016, that was in California. San Diego. I nearly missed my flight. Oh no, running through the airport.

SPEAKER_02

Always have your orthotics in your shoes, friends. I was like, safety first, you know.

SPEAKER_01

It was wild. Yes, if you were gonna run through the airport, please wear good shoes, have your orthotics in, particularly if you were of a certain age. And so I met Deser Angelina and I was we were one of the few folks of color there. And, you know, in these professional spaces, and I had already been to some other professional spaces where I was like, oh my God, this place is very white. One of these things is not like the other. Right. So we met each other and we were like, oh, we should keep in touch, we should do something. And um, we started to lay the groundwork for the alliance. And in 2017, uh it became part of PSI, uh, which was amazing and awesome. And we created that something that I feel just so proud of and it's so near and dear to my heart. And that's kind of and then PSI has been part of my world pretty much ever since then, in like the most wonderful way.

Dani

Wow. Oh my gosh. We just heard about like the birth of the Alliance.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It was. It was it was, I mean, it was really about like people, um, people of color finding each other in a room. And uh I remember at the end of that conference, everything was smaller there, and I feel like it it felt more like a club that I didn't really belong to. Oh. Because I've always felt like I didn't belong to the club. I'm almost like, I'm not Indian enough for like the Indian spaces. I'm not like, I'm just I always have felt like I didn't quite belong anywhere. And sometimes that's hard. And sometimes I'm like, well, how do I build bridges or how do I clear my own path or how do I make where I am different and more okay for me?

Emily

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And uh at the end of the conference, we were doing sort of like a feedback, like, how did it go? What do you want to see next year? And I remember saying, I know that there's a breakout space, it's a closed space for uh folks who are survivors of psychosis. And it's wonderful that people with a specific lived experience can be with each other. Can we have a breakout space that's just for folks of color? And a lot of people are like, oh, okay. And you know, people seemed receptive to that. Wendy was like, oh, cool, that's a great idea. And then next year we had the alliance and it was 2017 in Philly, and we had that. Boom. We were able to have those spaces, which is cool.

Dani

That's incredible. So when you met up with Jabina and Desiree, was it like at the end of the conference or something? And you guys were like, we should just like we're like the only like non-white people here, or like, like we need we need to make a club, and it's gonna be awesome, and it's there's gonna be people who look like us and have experiences like us, and like, you know.

SPEAKER_01

I don't remember exactly what we talked about, like what like I don't know if there was, you know, rainbows and unicorns, but I think all of us were like, why is it that race and racism and oppression is like a slide or maybe bullets on a slide when we're talking about PMADs?

Dani

Yeah. Talked about by a white person up in front of everybody else.

SPEAKER_01

Well, that too. If we had some sort of slogan or motto or something, it was like, we are not, our lives are not a sidebar issue. Our experience are not, we're not bullets on a slide. Our experience of PMADs cannot be, you can't separate the race and racism and culture piece, right? It is how we walk through the world. It's our relationship with providers. It's um, you know, if when I was like in my deep, deep dark places, I would have been much more likely to pick up the phone and call somebody named, you know, Sakina or Jabina or Marisol or just I was like, is there a black or brown person with you know, a name that might be a little bit more like mine?

Emily

Um it's akin to not being able to take off being a woman in spaces occupied by men.

SPEAKER_05

Right.

Emily

It is akin to being a woman who wants to be seen by a female dermatologist or OBGYN. Like what you're saying is the same, right? It's part of your identity. You want to see it in the people who help you. Well, right.

SPEAKER_01

And like I think about this so much, you know, with just the way we talk about things like self-care, you know, um, there's so many times people are like, you just need to take care of yourself. I'm like, you need to stop. You know, you were talking earlier about like what questions you wish people had asked. A question, this is not specifically about screening for PMATs, but I think it's really important to ask people, what does it mean to you to take care of yourself? What is what does that mean? What was modeled for you? What's your relationship with that? Because I was taught that self-care is for soft white people and that like you are selfish if you take care of yourself and you exist to do your duty to other people. Love and family is about the normalization and glorification of struggle and sacrifice. So if someone's like, you need to take care of yourself, I'm like, we're done. You do not know me. You don't have to be a person of color necessarily, but you need to have some sort of humility or uh curiosity or just an awareness that terms that people use uh very quickly and as part of vernacular may mean different things to different people. I always say to people, if we share some aspects of identity, I'm not gonna claim to know everything about you. Like I have a lot of they see clients, and I'm like, we share one aspect of our identity. I'm I'm not the same as you, I'm not gonna assume to know everything. Right. And if someone's like, you know what it's like growing up in these immigrant families where everything is just really freaking hard and you just have to be striving and succeeding and like clamping it all down all the time, I'm like, Yep, I do. As a matter of fact, I do. I do know what that's like. And so um, if you see somebody who might be able to understand those pieces that are hard, that's great, especially when you are vulnerable as all get out, you are exhausted, you are bleeding and leaking from various parts of your body. Some baby is screaming and you're like, my nipples are bleeding and I'm bleeding everywhere, and I just peed my pants. And I don't really want to explain to you why self-care is not something that I have an easy relationship with.

Dani

Right. Being able to understand that without having to explain cultural implications around like how you feel about self-care and why it might be difficult or whatever, or why it might be difficult to even talk about why you're having a hard time.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, there's a lot of guilt and shame for those of us who descended from people who struggled a lot more than we are. Um, and I don't mean to play the oppression or the trauma hardship Olympics, but you know, people who descended from enslaved people or people who sought asylum in this country because they fled war, famine, genocide, partition, whatever it is. Those people went through really hard things. You're like, well, I'm feeling sad and anxious after I had a baby.

Dani

Oh, I probably shouldn't talk about that because, you know, it's not genocide or famine, or, you know, so like there's this horrible comparison game, right?

Emily

Don't play the trauma Olympics. Right. But what goes around comes around because we started this whole conversation off talking about the fact that we all have kids in high school. And so the landscape has changed, right? Yeah. Which does mean that things are maybe a little, if not easier, more informed. Maybe there are more data points that people are collecting. Maybe there's more information to give to someone who asks for it. It's okay that it's different, right? But it's being able to say that and understand that in that way is very different than to be able to say that and understand it in the context of being the child of immigrants.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yes. And I think that like we are bringing those pieces into our conversations about PMADs. And that's I I see that more and more, right? I I go to the PSI conference, and there's not just one workshop on PMADs and people of color. There's many. And there's many on black women and Latino women and like different ethnicities and cultures. Because spoiler alert, people of color, women of color are not a monolith. Wait, really? I'm kidding. What? Oh, it's wild, man, because people are like, well, can you talk about rates of PMADs and BIPOC communities?

Emily

I'm like, what in the ever loving? What does that mean? That's like you're from Massachusetts. Oh, do you know Charlie? He's from Massachusetts. Like, what I'm sorry.

Dani

Down exactly what you're asking me.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Do people of color experience racism and bias within the medical system? Absolutely. Are they more likely to suffer and less likely to seek care? Absolutely. Why? Like then we need to disaggregate the hell out of all of this and start. Again, what questions are you asking? And who are you asking? And um, I see a lot of movement here. And I look at who comes to the conference, you know, for example, and how much that's changed. And we just still have a really long way to go. Yeah. Yes. A really, really long way to go. Yeah. But yeah, that's me and PSI. And now it's awesome to see how the alliance has grown and all the cool things that are happening. It's really wonderful. It was five years where the three of us kind of ran it with a with a small board, but we had a board. And then Andrea was hired in 2022 when they got a big, a big grant to hire staff.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

Emily

And then suddenly it was like, you know, it felt like at that point things started changing more quickly because money, right? Like when you can fund things, it's it starts to look different faster sometimes.

SPEAKER_01

We were volunteers for five years. Yeah. We were volunteers.

Emily

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I remember it's the funny story. In Philly in 2017, Emily, were you there? Were you? Yeah, okay. That was my first one. It was your first one. Okay. Um, that was what they did the the quilt that year of the of the women who died. And um, I was like boo-hooing and like they give you champagne. I forget why. We're gonna do why were we crying? And then there's a champagne toast. I don't know what happened. And I think I went to Wendy and I was like, maybe you can give me a little bit of money and I can like try to like get some big pieces up and running. And she was very sweet and nurturing as Wendy is, and she was like, it's gonna take some time and we're just gonna keep working on it and we're gonna do it together. And the three of us had a monthly meeting with Wendy for years. And sometimes you came to that Emily and Carrie was there, and Edith Edith was amazing was amazing. Uh, she was really, really lovely and just so dedicated and did so much for us. And it was five years of those monthly meetings, and we made some uh really good progress. And then PSI got money, and then it was the little engine that could kind of became a its own rocket ship.

Dani

Oh my gosh.

Emily

It's hard when you're there in the beginning of like a startup like that, right? And you're like, I can picture what I what I really want, but how do like what is the path gonna be? How long is that path gonna be to get wherever that is? Yes. Because there is no, we're not there, there's no finish line.

SPEAKER_01

But no, there's no finish line. And it's interesting because I feel like particularly in Asian American communities, I would see Asian American folks at the PSI conference, and I was like, You coming to are you coming to the Alliance meetup? Are you coming? And they'd be like, is the alliance for us?

SPEAKER_02

And I'm like, Yes, it's for all of us.

SPEAKER_01

And there's just, you know, I'll just be direct. I think there's a lot of like internalized racism in Asian communities, particularly anti-blackness. And, you know, for all of my APIDA folks out there, approximate whiteness will not keep us safe. Dismantle all of that. And I think that I tried to do a lot of that work in the role that I was in at the time. And I think there's still more of that to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

This is another place where I'm kind of like, I am sometimes the person who says things where people are like, you don't like capitalism? I'm like, no, I don't.

Dani

Yeah, but what if people, what if nobody said the things? Yeah. Divya, thanks for saying the things.

SPEAKER_01

I'm trying to say the things. But yeah, that's so that that's my PSI story. Um, and it's it is hard to start something and then not know how it's gonna launch and grow. And I think that a theme for me, again, has been that a lot of my paths in life with my career, my relationship to my racial identity, with parenting, whatever, it's been this nonlinear kind of meandering, unfolding thing. And I often feel like I am trying to build bridges to somewhere that I don't know and clear my own path.

Emily

And I feel like the alliance has been just a part of that.

SPEAKER_02

If that makes sense.

Emily

Build bridges to somewhere that I don't know. That is like, that's it.

SPEAKER_01

Otherwise, I'm kind of on an island.

Emily

I'm like, like coming back to the Venn diagram, I'm like, hoy. Because I think when when you think about like you said at one point, feeling like you weren't enough of this or that to be able to like really occupy that space with those folks. It's almost like if you are in that center of the Venn diagram that you are aware of all of the lines. The lines are not theoretical, they are sometimes literal, right? They are sometimes barriers of language or of a slight difference in skin tone or whatever. Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, even that uh that psychiatrist who thought I was hypomanic, ironically, that was an Indian doctor. It was so I there's just layers and layers. There's like lots of like peeling layers of an onion and you know, figuring all this out. But I was like, oh, you had never seen somebody of our ethnicity present the way I did. And I was so wild and out of character for you that you thought I was hypomanic. I was like, I know exactly what's happening, but there isn't anybody else that I can explain this to because I'm in my little Venn diagram.

SPEAKER_02

I'm like, I'm just so weird.

Emily

You're just so Divya. Just in my little Venn diagram. Yeah. The center of the flower. All right. Tell us before we change subjects, what are you doing to support folks today? Now, obviously, the alliance has been handed off to capable, highly capable, intimidatingly capable hands. They're so wonderful. Um, but I know that you're working as a therapist. Are you still seeing folks in this period? What's what's happening for you today? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I am a therapist. I primarily see uh folks in the perinatal period through like early parenting. Some people have like elementary, like early, like young teenagers too. Uh I mostly see folks of color, folks of culture, folks with proximity to immigration. And most of the work we do is like peeling the layers of the onion and processing how all of these things show up in the context of the transition to parenthood and early parenting. Like a lot of the stuff that I've dumped out here are those pieces of like, oh, the normalization of struggle and sacrifice, and you don't take care of yourself. And, you know, I have to be doing things a certain way. Parenting is so, it can be so triggering, right? It's like we everybody's got like the hornet's nest, and parenthood is like, or you know, the closet is like packed full and empty, and like the closet door falls open, and there's crap everywhere. And most of it, most of what therapy is, is we're like, wow, what is this thing? What is this box full of like the lid fell off of this box?

Emily

And now there's there are bees in here. Are you aware you had bees in a box in your closet? You're like, I thought I put those away, or I did not even know that those were there.

SPEAKER_01

No, but they're here now. And you know, to go with the metaphor, sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's just a mess. I will never show you what's on either side of this screen. But when you start to stub your toes on the box and you're like, I can't walk through my hallway because then we're like, we need to move this box. And a lot of it is like, what is in here? What do we want to make meaning out of this? Or how can we put it away, put it away in a way that feels okay and sustainable? We can't erase it, but how do we want to understand it differently?

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's a lot of making sense of things like identity and culture and trauma, attachment trauma, intergenerational trauma, interpersonal trauma, all these narratives, um, figuring out how to make sense of all of it.

Dani

We're big proponents of therapy here in the podcast studio. I didn't even make connections to experiences in my life until I started going to until I became a parent and then was like, these kids are so difficult. You know, and then you start talking about why is this coming up for you over and over? Let's talk about over. You remember like a time in your life, and I'm like, oh my God, suddenly I've transported to being seven years old and this memory that just keeps coming back up. And here I am doing EMDR, and there you go.

Emily

Anyway, like I'm done tripping over this box. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

EMDR is a great, uh, is a great way to put the box. Yes, it is. And there's there's different like, and good for you, because the therapist in me is like, when have you felt this before, Danny? Uh-huh.

Dani

And then I'm like, I was six and a half. And I don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01

But I've chosen to be here today. Fine. Right. And like I hate to be this person who is always, you know, when I go to my own therapy, I'm like, well, my attachment, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, why am I always flipping talking about attachment? I'm like, oh, because attachment is so important. And for those of us who spoiler alert, many of us are sitting in these chairs because our attachment is wonky. Mm-hmm. I feel like a lot of what I have done personally and professionally is to like figure out my own way. And I love being able to bear witness for people who are doing that too. And you all know, like, there's no magic stuff. We don't have magic wands and fast forward buttons, but what do we do? We We bear witness and we help people make meaning. And I'm always like, don't hold heavy, hard things by yourself.

Dani

Right. Don't. Right. Yeah. Your pockets are full of really heavy rocks. Why are you walking around with all of those?

Emily

Also, are those all yours? It's like this is this is my guilt and shame that I'm not ready to get rid of yet.

Dani

How's that going for you?

Emily

Heavy. My pants are falling off. I'm kidding. Okay.

Dani

Well, this is not that kind of podcast.

Emily

Okay. I'm just saying if you had Brox in anyway.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. But yeah, that that's like what I my goal is to help people feel like if somebody else is on the how how do I do this? What does it all mean? How do I build the bridge to nowhere? That that's I'm like, I got you. And um, the thing that I'm really trying to do is I'm trying to finish a book proposal for a workbook that's like specifically geared towards children of immigrants around the parenting journey. And I just maybe I maybe keep this in to keep me accountable because I'm like, I really believe in it. I don't think there's anything like that out there, and it's what I do, and so I want to kind of make that happen. Yeah. But perimenopausal brain fog and activation energy is like that's real, man. So, how long have you been working on this little project? I've been like thinking about it for maybe three years.

Dani

Oh. Should we do like a weekly check-in? Be like, Divya. It's us again.

Emily

We'll like text you and be like, have you done any homework?

Dani

She's gonna be like, I hate them.

SPEAKER_01

No, seriously, I need I need people to help me. But there's always something, right? Like, I wrote an essay here and there, I wrote something here and there, but I'm like, I really I believe in this thing. I know I'm working on the proposal because I I I believe I really believe in it. I need to just get my act together. That's it. Yes. Trying to use like clean language is like, whoa, thesaurus.

Dani

Yeah, I was like, I didn't think she was gonna say act. It's cool, whatever.

Emily

But I did. But you did. But the Rolodex of alt words from the good place. Mother forking shirt. Mother forking shirt balls.

SPEAKER_01

So this is the bad place.

Emily

Rotro.

Dani

Okay. Are we ready for a lightning round? Is there anything else you'd like to chat about, Divya, that we like didn't ask about, or you thought, you know what?

SPEAKER_01

I don't think so. I think I covered it. I often I'm like, I'm between two places. I'm trying to figure it out. I often look at all these different groups of people. I'm like, I don't really belong here. And sometimes it's okay. You know, also like there's a little bit of radical acceptance. And um, anyway, I love what I do. I feel incredibly lucky every day. I love my clients, I love my job. Every day I wake up and I feel so incredibly lucky and grateful. It's such an honor and a privilege to sit with people and to listen to their stories and what they think about and worry about and wonder about. I I feel I love my job. I feel like the luckiest person that I get to do this.

Dani

Yeah. There's your sign for, you know, am I doing the right thing? Yeah. In Tivia's doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_01

Also, especially now, especially in this climate where everything feels so horrible and out of our control, it's like reminds me of the early COVID days, right? Everyone's like, oh my God. And I'm like, I know, man, me too, girl. Like I'm buckled up. I I don't hold it alone. We have the power of our relationships, and our relationships are so important and powerful, and that's where you know we can feel whole and like ourselves. Yeah.

Dani

Yeah. I know there are like a number of therapists we've talked to who their clients obviously, you know, their buckets are getting filled by going to therapy, and the therapist buckets are getting filled by doing the thing, you know, like supporting folks. Anyway. I mean, shameless plug, are you like taking new clients or not really?

SPEAKER_01

I'm a little full. And I am trying to set good boundaries so I can work on this proposal.

Dani

You know what? Don't even think about reaching out to Duvia.

SPEAKER_01

I'm just available.

Dani

She's busy.

SPEAKER_01

She's gotta write a book. I do some speaking stuff. Okay. And it was cool. Microsoft reached out to me a few weeks ago and it they're like Asian employee resource group. And so I came and did a talk on mental health and intergenerational trauma. It's API D A Asian Pacific Islander at AC American Heritage Month. It's May.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yes, and it's perinatal mental health awareness month. So I hope that like I have like hit the here's my intersection. My work. Right.

Emily

You're like, I'm really booked up this month, you know.

SPEAKER_01

May is usually busy in a good way.

Dani

Well, thanks for like hanging out with us. It's like the end of May. Yeah. For you ladies, anything. Thank you so much for for being here.

Emily

It's a wild month. Thank you for having me.

Dani

She made time for us.

Emily

Yeah, she did.

Dani

We feel really special.

Emily

Are we ready for a lightning round? Okay, lightning.

Dani

Divia, it's not rapid fire, don't worry. Okay, besides this podcast, do you have another favorite podcast? Or maybe you don't like the word favorite. Do you listen to podcasts? Something that you'd like to recommend to our listeners? I'm too dumb for podcasts.

SPEAKER_01

I can't pay attention. Take that back. Too dumb for podcasts. I can't focus. I can't focus. I know I should try it again.

Dani

I um Okay, Divya's actually really smart.

SPEAKER_01

But clients recommend podcasts. They're like, you have to listen to this thing. There was one client who was like, I know you don't listen to podcasts, but you have to do this. And I was like, okay. And it was a couple of years ago. Um, I was recovering from COVID, actually, and it was this amazing podcast about healing racial trauma with the use of psychedelics. And she was like, You gotta listen to this. And I did, and I have no idea what it was, but it was really interesting. Of course, Dr. Kat's podcast about perinatal is always calm in mind. We love Dr.

unknown

Kat.

SPEAKER_01

And healing the Tigris. Oh God, yes.

Dani

I met Jasmine mentoring in the peer mentor program way back in the day, like early pandemic, like 2020, like second cohort ever, maybe. And we kind of kept in touch. And then she came on our podcast and she's like, My friend and I are gonna start a podcast. We're thinking about it. And I was like, yes, yes, do it. Oh man, their conversations are amazing.

SPEAKER_01

And so powerful and really highlighting the intersection of Asian identity and perinatal mental health. I met Jasmine, my gosh, I think it was in 2023. It was actually the day my mother's death anniversary. Andrea asked Jasmine and Shivani and I to do a panel on like the intersection of Asian American Heritage Month and Perinatal Mental Health Awareness Month. And I was like, normally I would say no. This is the day that I protect. But I was like, absolutely, I'm gonna say yes because we need to do this. And it was, I met Jasmine and Shavani on that panel.

Dani

Oh, both so lovely. We love both of them.

SPEAKER_02

Love both of those ladies.

Dani

Yeah. Great podcast recommendations. Thank you.

Emily

Mm-hmm. All right. Are you currently binge watching or reading or listening? Maybe listening is not your favorite medium.

SPEAKER_01

Well, music is the thing that I listen to. So I'm like very much a music person, like I said. The book that I recommend that I read relatively recently that I just could not put down, like I wanted to eat it, um, is this book called, you know, don't you ever feel that way? You're like, I want to devour something.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's um a book called House of Caravans by Shilpe. I'm blanking on her last name. Uh, she's local. She lives in Boston or Cambridge, but it is uh a beautiful, like sweeping, epic novel. It's a historical fiction based in the time of partition. And I believe that it's based on the story of her grandfather who lived in Lahore in the 1940s. It's hard. It's there are some parts that are hard to read, but it's an amaz you cannot put the book down. She's a gorgeous, gorgeous writer.

SPEAKER_04

Oh.

SPEAKER_01

Say the title again. House of Caravans.

Dani

Got it. We'll put links to all this stuff in the show notes. Um, Divya, do you have like a favorite parenting hack? Go to therapy. Boom! Our job here is done. Yeah. Seriously.

SPEAKER_01

It's triggering. It's hard. Kids will push your buttons. You cannot co-regulate for sheep if you cannot get your own ish together. And co-regulating is probably the most important thing we do as parents.

Dani

Don't wait till it feels like an emergency, man. Every other week. Let's go. Yep. Yes. So true. What is one way that you're gonna show yourself a little radical love today, Divya? Radical. We're gonna use the word radical again. I mean radical can mean whatever you feel like.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know about radical. I did work out this morning and exercise is my like that's my deep, deep non-negotiable self-care. I'm doing this strength class for women over 40. It is a me zing. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Yes, because we need to lift weights as we get older. We need that. Muscle mass goes down.

Dani

Yep. Also, doesn't it like help with your like bone density and stuff too?

SPEAKER_01

It does. It is good for many reasons. And that to me, I'm like, I want to lift heavy weights. I do not need to run. I cannot run anymore. But I'm like, I want to lift heavy shit.

Dani

I heard that Divya lifted like 800 pounds today. No. I'm kidding. That's what I heard.

Emily

I'll never tell. I like to start cool rumors like that.

Dani

It's like a humble brag. Put that on today's thumbnail. I lifted 800 pounds today. Yeah, no big deal. No, it's really good. My body likes that.

Emily

If you could jump in a time machine and go back to one of those, I don't know, deep needing help moments. What would you say to pre-recovery you?

SPEAKER_04

Oh God.

SPEAKER_01

Um, oh my gosh, that's a really good one. And I didn't really think in advance about this one. You're gonna be good off the cuff, I think. I think I would say that everything is gonna work out in a way that you may not have anticipated that it would work out, and it may work out in a bizarre and nonlinear, like meandering way, but like it will be okay, and you will also continue to recover. That's what I would say too, that like recovery is really it's it's circular and nonlinear, and you will come back to pieces of it again and again and again, and that's okay, and it's part of the journey. I think about um Judith Herman and her seminal work, trauma and recovery. You know, the stage one is safety and stabilization. We need to make sure that you're like okay in emotions and body, and stage two is remembrance and mourning. And there's a lot of looking back and making meaning and about things that we lost, things we didn't understand, things that we didn't get, things that we needed. There will be a lot of that, and that's okay. And different iterations will look different, and that's also okay.

Dani

Bam. That was great. We should make like a compilation of all of the things that all of our guests have to say to pre-recovery them, because that would be amazing for for you know, maternal mental health awareness month of like these are all the messages that people have.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

Dani

It's May 23rd. We're having light bulb moments now for content that we should have.

Emily

It's fine. We've got 11 months. There'll be another May. Because it's nonlinear and it comes back around. Like the calendar. I see what you did there.

Dani

It's fine. You know what though? We support folks every single month. Emily, would you like to ask this question? This is your favorite question.

Emily

How do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, flavor, no flavor, ice, no ice, room temperature.

Dani

We like to make sure people are, you know, hydrated and stuff.

SPEAKER_01

So I am very well hydrated. Oh, excellent. I do not like bubbles, I do not like flavor, and I do not like ice unless it is very, very, very hot outside. In fact, I often want my water a little bit warm.

Dani

Oh, that's actually easier for your body. Like easier on your body, right?

SPEAKER_01

But people who would put ice in their water in the winter.

Dani

Yeah, that's so weird. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Your face, Emily.

Dani

You cannot manage yourself. I was like, oh God, it's me. For anybody listening and not watching the video, Emily and I are hiding behind our hands. Yeah, we both are ice people. I know. Please don't judge us.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. I was gonna say, so our fridge died last summer and we got a new fridge, and it has a uh ice doohickey uh and a fridge water doohickey. There are two humans in my house who just love the ice and the fridge water. And another human and I are like, no.

Dani

Yeah, don't even get my cup near that. Don't even think about it.

SPEAKER_01

No, maybe when it is 98 degrees in July and we're like dripping, maybe, but no, I want it a little bit warm. And also sometimes I want it like hot. I want to drink hot water. And Emily, you were like, I can't, you're like, I can't open things.

Dani

Just like plain. Listen, everybody likes it differently, okay?

SPEAKER_02

I'm okay with being alone in my Venn diagram here. I'm like, I'm alone with my water, so come at me, fools. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, that's my me and my wife.

Dani

Awesome. Divya, if anything resonated with folks uh by listening to this podcast and they would like to get a hold of you, is there a way to get a hold of you? Would you like to not be gotten a hold of? Like, don't call Divya, she'll call you. Yeah. What is your preference?

SPEAKER_01

Nope, everybody anybody can call me. I'm just not, I can't like take a bunch of new people right now. But you can Google me and you'll find the website, and there's like a contact me button. It's I think it's diviacumarlicw.com is the website. And for those of you who are on the socials, the um my Instagram is both brown and therapist. Because we do hold many things at the same time.

Emily

Yeah, there you are at the intersection. Trying to do it, girl. Yep.

Dani

Okay, Emily. Well, I think that about wraps it up. Would you like to take us out?

Emily

I would. Okay. Okay. Divya, I have known you, I have known of you. I have been following your work since 2014 or 2015. Wow. When when we were very first, you know, babies with babies and like trying to figure out what was happening for us. I always will love these conversations with you because you say profound things and it evolves because we are all always growing. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01

Emily, someone cut onions in here. I grew up with onions being cut around me, and so usually I'm okay, but um, that's really sweet. And it's been such an honor to know you through these years and through our iterations of doing what we do professionally and also being who we are as women and moms and parents of humans who teach us so much and hold up the mirror, and we make sense and meaning of all of it. And it's always great to talk to you about the real thing. You're always someone who has heard the real things and the hard things and let me say all the stuff that I wanted to say. And um, I'll say, especially as a brown woman, like you are like a white woman in my pantheon of white women who just flip and get it and who let me be whole. So thank you, Emily. Thank you both for having me, Danny, Emily. It's so nice to be here with you both.

Dani

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help with our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

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Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
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Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host