NICOLE MCNELIS - I AM ONE Angry Mother

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Nicole McNelis - speaker, writer, therapist-mom & mom therapist. For anyone who attended PSI’s 2024 Annual conference in Washington, DC - you may remember Nicole from the highly-attended session that she led on rage. And if you didn’t attend, I’m sure you heard all kinds of buzz about that session afterward because this is a topic that people are READY to talk about. We’ll chat about compromised needs, violated expectations & "good enough parenting" ... oh, and our plans for a little meet-up to try the Philly's best cheesesteak. Anyone want to join us? Make sure to stick around to the very end of the lightning round, when we ask Nicole a question that brings all 3 of us to tears. We laugh, we cry, we say the quiet thoughts out loud. So, without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend, Nicole.

Mentioned on today's episode:

• PSI Annual Conference
• Perinatal Mental Health Certification (PMH-C)
• Podcast: How Did This Get Made?
• Movie: The Wild Robot
• Connect with Nicole: @therapist.mom.collective (IG); nicolemcnelis.com

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Transcript

Introduction | Maternal Rage, Expectations & Mental Health

Dani 0:00

Welcome to the I Am One Podcast, where we talk to perinatal mental health advocates, professionals, and educators supporting the mission of Postpartum Support International. We're not afraid to ask our guests about the hardest parts of pregnancy and postpartum because we know that PSI has tools and resources to help in every situation, and everyone should know about them.

Emily 0:22

Whether you are among the one in five moms, one in ten dads, one of many trans or non-binary parents, or you're one professional or advocate committed to helping folks in need, you are also one of us.

Dani 0:35

I'm your host, Dani Giddens, and I am one in five. I didn't know what to call what I was experiencing after becoming a parent and felt too scared at the time to speak up.

Emily 0:46

Not anymore, now she won't stop talking about it. Hi, I'm your co-host, Emily Jankowski. I'm also one in five, and I want you to know that mental health complications are common, but they aren't normal.

Dani 0:58

There's something powerful in knowing I am one of many. Whether you're already connected to the perinatal mental health world, looking for new ways to support parents and families, or just want to hang out with us in your earbuds, we are so glad that you tuned in.

Emily 1:13

Of course they want to hang out with us. We're lovely. Seriously though, the views, thoughts, and opinions expressed on this pod are the speaker own. Tuning into this podcast is, spoiler alert, not a replacement for therapy, but PSI can help you find a therapist. We could also help you find a psychiatrist, a support group, or Waldo.

Dani 1:30

Emily, Waldo? Come on! We don't know where Waldo is.

Meet Nicole: Therapist, Mom & Maternal Rage Advocate

Emily 1:34

Okay, fine. PSI help seekers can find peer support and resources in their area.

Dani 1:40

At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help, you will be well. On today's episode, we're sitting down with Nicole McNelis, speaker, writer, therapist mom, and mom therapist. For anyone who's attended PSI's 2024 annual conference in Washington, DC, you may remember Nicole from the highly attended session that she led on rage. And if you didn't attend, I'm sure that you heard all kinds of buzz about that session afterward, because this is a topic that people are ready to talk about. We'll chat about compromised needs, violated expectations, and good enough parenting. Oh, and our plans for a little meetup to try Philly's best cheesesteak. Anyone want to join us? Make sure you stick around to the very end of the lightning round when we ask Nicole a question that brings all three of us to tears. We laugh, we cry, we say the quiet thoughts out loud. So without any further ado, please sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode with our friend Nicole. Nicole, welcome to the podcast studio. We are so excited that you are here. Highly, highly anticipated from the I Am One podcast hosts. You must know we have been fangirling since the PSI conference this summer when you led just like this little session on postpartum rage, you know, that they had to close the doors to because so many people wanted to come attend it.

Emily 3:14

And then you became famous overnight as a result. Can I have your autograph?

Dani 3:20

More on that later. But we are just going to try to not make you giggle the whole episode because that's not what we're here for. But there's gonna be some giggling. But um we are just so glad that you're here. So thank you so much.

Nicole 3:36

Well, thank you both so much for having me. I am absolutely thrilled to be here. The fangirling situation is mutual. Um, I am a big fan of the podcast. I am a huge fan of Postpartum Support International. I love all of the things that they do. I feel so fortunate to be able to be a part of the work that they do, and I'm really I'm so excited for this episode because I think the things that we are gonna talk about are things that we are ready to talk about in this field and that moms and parents are ready to talk about. I remember when I was preparing for my presentation on maternal rage over the summer, getting ready for the PSI conference. And I honestly remember thinking to myself, I wonder if anybody's gonna attend my session, you know, because it was a breakout session, right? So, like... Spoiler alert. Right.

Dani 4:26

They locked the doors.

Nicole 4:29

Attendees could pick what sessions they wanted to attend. And I was like, I hope some people show up. And then, you know, I had some therapist friends there, and I was like, well, they'll be there, so that'll be nice. And then I'm standing on the stage as the room is filling up, and it was just waves is the only way I could describe it. It was just like massive waves of people coming into the room, and then I had the thought, which was, oh, I guess we're ready to talk about mom rage. I guess we're- I guess we're there. And then I was like, oh, I better not mess this up because there's a lot of people coming into this room.

Emily 5:02

And it's being recorded, no pressure, just like this.

Nicole 5:06

Yeah, and then there were so many people in the room. We had to literally ask some people to leave, and like we were encouraging people to leave, and then we had to lock the doors. It was unreal. So that was, I mean, I was ready to talk about mom rage, and it turns out that other people were too. So I'm here for it and I'm excited about it.

Dani 5:26

Yay.

Emily 5:27

It was the first recording I listened to. As staff, when they became available to us, I was like, you know what I'm gonna listen to first. And then you filled out the thing to be on the pod, and I was like, ooh, this is yeah, serendipitous. Love it.

Dani 5:44

Nicole, can you give us a little bit of an intro to who you are?

Postpartum Experience & Severe Sleep Deprivation

Nicole 5:47

Yeah, absolutely. So my name is Nicole McNelis. I am a licensed professional counselor and a perinatal mental health specialist. I'm a speaker and writer on all things motherhood. I like to say that I'm a therapist mom and a mom therapist. I have two kids. They are 12 and 8, and I live in the Philadelphia area of Pennsylvania.

Dani 6:08

Oh, great. Not too far from Emily. Yeah.

Emily 6:12

Not too far. We're gonna have to hang out.

Nicole 6:14

Oh my goodness, absolutely. We'll make it happen.

Emily 6:19

It's like, where should we meet up? The Liberty Bell? I don't know. Can we reenact the um oh my gosh, what was that Nicolas Cage movie?

Nicole 6:30

Oh no, not like national treasure. Oh no, oh no, that's like the class trip situation. We need to go somewhere fun. Oh no.

Dani 6:41

We have digressed.

Nicole 6:44

We're not going to Patantinos for cheesesteaks, Emily. We're not doing it. No, no. We're going to like the real places.

Emily 6:51

It's a tourist trap. It is.

Dani 6:53

I've never had a Philly cheesesteak.

Emily 6:56

You order one with cheese. One with cheese. Is that where they say like wit o witout?

Nicole 7:05

That's right. That's right.

Dani 7:06

Oh my god. Okay. Sorry. Okay, we should move on to the next question, but more on this later.

Emily 7:11

More on this later, yes. Okay. So can you tell us what role, if any, spoiler, I know the answer because I've already listened to your talk. What role have perinatal mental health disorders have played in your personal life?

Nicole 7:25

Uh, they have played a huge role in my personal life. So after I had, I mean, nearly immediately after I had my first, who is now 12 years old, unbelievably. So this was just about 12 years ago, he did not sleep. I don't know any other- there's no clinical terms for it. He didn't sleep. And it took us some time to figure out that he had a really severe reflux that led to colic. And this poor little guy, his reflux was so severe that he would only sleep in 20-minute increments, contact sleeping, and he had to be elevated. His head had to be elevated because the reflux was so bad. So I was painfully sleep deprived. I was, you know, transitioning to this role of mother that I'd never had before, which is already like this monumental transition. And I was getting essentially zero sleep with another human attached to me.

Emily 8:24

Yeah.

Dismissed by a Provider & Finding the Right Support

Nicole 8:24

I knew that something wasn't right, both with him, right? Because it was clear that, like, you know, I knew that not all babies slept well, but this seemed like pretty extreme. And I knew that something was really off with me. And I remember taking him to the pediatrician. And at that point, you know, you're taking newborns to the pediatricians pretty often, but I was taking him even more often because I was going in there saying, like, he's not sleeping, the spit up didn't seem normal. Like it just all of it seemed, I knew something was not quite right. And I remember at one point, it was probably about three or four weeks in, and I'm bringing him into the pediatrician every week, and his pediatrician at the time, who is no longer his pediatrician.

Emily 9:08

Oh no.

Nicole 9:09

Oh, yeah.

Dani 9:10

Foreshadowing.

Nicole 9:11

Get ready, get ready. Oh, and I was crying in the appointment because I was so painfully sleep deprived. Um, and I had postpartum depression at the time, but didn't know it. And says to me, with an eye roll, do you think that you were the only mom who's ever come in here and cried? And I was like... So I stopped crying because I was so ashamed. And she is a mom of three and a pediatrician. And so I'm thinking-

Emily 9:41

I am shocked.

Nicole 9:42

Wow, yeah, I'm really bad at this, right? Like, here is this like accomplished doctor and mother of multiple children, and I'm in here crying, right?

Emily 9:56

Like I can't handle one.

Nicole 9:57

Yes, like I can't handle one, and he doesn't even do much. Like he's just like a newborn. He's like a baby blob, right? And I can't even handle that. And that was what I felt in the moment. And then I came home and I was like, no, it's not, it's not me, it's her, right? Like...

Dani 10:16

Dang.

Emily 10:17

It's not me, it's you. It's time to break up.

Nicole 10:19

Yes. And so I called the office back and I asked- I knew that we needed another appointment because I knew that something was probably medically not okay with my son. And I asked to see another pediatrician in the practice. I go in for that appointment literally, like a few days later, explain everything that's been going on with my son, and that doctor says to me, it sounds like your son has textbook reflux. Here are the options for treatment, and also it seems like you might not be like doing too well. Here are some resources for you. And literally handed me like- they had a list, they had a printed list of resources at this pediatrician's office.

Emily 11:01

Two doctors, same office.

Nicole 11:03

Same office.

Dani 11:04

Oh man.

Reflux Diagnosis & Trusting Maternal Instincts

Nicole 11:04

And the list is like pre-printed. He didn't even have to go get it. He came into the meeting, he came into the appointment with the list, right? And he walked me through the treatment options for my son, encouraged me to engage in some treatment options and some assistance for myself. And one of the things I asked him was so we did decide on a medication treatment for my son. And I remember asking him, like, how will I know like when the medicine has kicked in, or how will I know if it's working? And he says, you know, it usually takes a few days, but he'll start sleeping. You'll still have like the spit-up stuff, but you'll know from sleeping. Let me tell you. So he said it was gonna take a few days. I immediately went to the pharmacy, filled that prescription, gave that little guy his first dose of medication. He slept for two hours. He took a two-hour nap. And then you know what I did during that two-hour nap? I just looked at him the whole time. I didn't rest because I couldn't believe–

Emily 11:59

Right. You were like, something's wrong. That's too fast

Nicole 12:02

Like, why is he doing this?

Dani 12:03

What have I done?

Pandemic Parenting, Overwhelm & Loss of Control

Nicole 12:04

What have I done? Yeah, he took a two-hour nap on his own, like in the like play pen thing. And I was like, I don't even understand how this is possible. And then he continued to do that, and I was like, it's the medication. Like he was in so much pain from the reflux that he could not rest. And he was trying to tell us that. And so that to me was such like affirmation and confirmation to trust myself as a mother. And then him starting to sleep a little better then gave me the opportunity to get some assistance for myself because he still wasn't a great sleeper, but he was a better sleeper. But we still had issues with feeding. We still had like just a big mess every day with all of the spit up. It was still a lot. So that was my first experience with perinatal mood and anxiety disorder. And then during the pandemic, which is hard to believe that that started up, you know, four years ago that we were dealing with that in 2020. I started noticing- so at that time I was a mother of two. My partner typically works out of the home, like doesn't have a job where he can work from home typically. I had a hybrid practice, so I was seeing clients both from home and in the office. Oh, and both my kids were in school. So I had like made it to the promised land where like both of your kids are in school.

Emily 13:28

Oh man, you had arrived.

Nicole 13:30

Yes.

Dani 13:30

When the youngest like heads off to kindergarten and you're like, well then, and now for something different.

Nicole 13:38

Yes, it's such an amazing thing. Yeah.

Emily 13:41

The hills are alive.

Nicole 13:43

My oldest was in first grade, my youngest was in preschool, and it was like, oh, like we've made it to this like really lovely sweet spot of parenting. And then the pandemic hit, and everybody was home all the time. I had a first grader trying to do virtual school. I had a preschooler whose preschool was closed. I had a partner who typically doesn't work from home that was like, I don't even know how to do- how to work from home because this is not something that we do. I couldn't go to the office to see my clients anymore. It was just this intense experience. And then also it was terrifying, right? I know that you'll both understand this, right? As parents, one of the things that we frequently have an expectation that we'll be able to do is to protect our kids and keep them safe, right?

Emily 14:27

Right.

Nicole 14:27

Right. And although we know that's not completely in our control, like we like to take the parts of it that are in our control and do that, right? And keep our kids as safe as we possibly can. And that just felt like it all went out the window. And that was absolutely terrifying. And then all of those feelings. So my clients frequently describe it like this it feels like you're drowning and exploding at the same time. That was how I felt.

Experiencing Maternal Rage & Emotional Overload

Dani 14:52

Yeah.

Nicole 14:53

Right? Like, how is that even possible? But it is, they're not contradictory. You're literally drowning and exploding at the same time. So I felt that. And then I started to recognize this rage that was coming up for me that I had not experienced in that way before. And that was honestly just specifically tied to my role as a mother at that time. Like I was just so overstimulated and overwhelmed and so scared that it was- I had a really short fuse. And then that was scary. And it was just like this horrible snowball effect. So that was kind of my most recent experience with perinatal anxiety and mood disorders.

Emily 15:35

Yeah.

Nicole 15:38

I like to keep it very intense.

Dani 15:41

Oh man. I know Emily and I have both experienced rage, and I was way too afraid to tell anybody about it or talk about it, and I wasn't hearing anybody talk about it at the time because, you know, I thought this was my job. And it's just there's a lot going on for us, right? Like for you, it was an extreme overstimulation, everything being up-ended, expectations being way off. For me, postpartum, it was like lack of sleep and not knowing exactly what I was doing, you know?

Shame, Guilt & Why Moms Don’t Talk About Rage

Emily 16:14

Yeah, the overwhelm and the juggling of multiple things is just...

Nicole 16:19

Right. And then there's such shame and guilt associated with that, right? It's like this is not how I've been told mothers act, right? This is not the expectation for mothers, right? And so then I need to feel badly about this emotional experience that I'm having. And so then we hide it and we don't do anything about it because how can we do anything about it if we can't even share it, if we can't come to terms with what we're experiencing? And honestly, it reminds me of that early experience with that pediatrician where it kind of stopped me in my tracks, where I was like, oh, she's clearly telling me that I'm doing this wrong. And so I need to figure this out. And also, this is not a place for me to share that experience, right? Like this is clearly not a place for a mom to come in and cry during a medical appointment, right? And you know, I learned that real quick in that appointment. And what a terrible lesson, right? And so um, I think that there, that's frequently that early experience is frequently reflected for so many of us as moms in many different experiences, including around the experience of mom rage, where it's like you're not supposed to do that.

Dani 17:28

But it happens.

Nicole 17:29

Yeah.

Dani 17:31

And so, oh, go ahead, Emily. You look, you're doing this with your fingers. All of our listeners who are not watching the video, Emily just put her fingers together, like in the shape of a diamond and started tapping them. Like, I think she's got a thought.

Emily 17:46

I will never play poker with you because you know all my tells. She's about to say something.

Dani 17:55

Well, if you had a great poker hand and you suddenly started going with your fingers, maybe you shouldn't be playing poker. But anyway, Emily. Hey, what were you thinking of?

Emily 18:08

Okay. In your exploration of this experience of rage, right? So first you had the experience of rage, and then you were like, hmm, I want to learn more. And then I want to hear about the route that gets you to presenting at the conference, but I have a question about the rage. How many people who experience? I don't even want to say postpartum rage. I just want to say rage related to parenting, like rage in motherhood, whatever your identification is in that moment. How many people describe it as failure?

Nicole 18:48

Is it like a hundred percent? Is it a hundred percent? I think that might be the valid answer. So, first of all, this is also not a surprise. In looking at the academic research on the topic of maternal rage and postpartum rage, there's not a ton of research, right? Which is like a big surprise because it is a healthcare issue related to and mental health issue related to motherhood specifically. So there's a big gap there. But thankfully, there is a handful of very recent research that's really, really well done. And there's two studies in particular that I'm thinking of that I used quite a bit in my presentation as like the basis of my presentation. And in those two studies, right, they really wanted to look at this experience of maternal rage from the mom's perspective and the patterns that the researchers saw, one of the things that really rose to the top was this idea of shame and guilt. I am doing this wrong. One of the things that they talk about in particular in one of the studies is this idea of violated expectations. Most of us go into parenting thinking, I'm gonna at least do okay at this. Right? Like, right? Like I've got this, right? Like...

Dani 20:04

Not only that, a lot of us think, oh, this is gonna be great.

Nicole 20:08

Yeah.

Dani 20:09

We know what we're doing.

“Violated Expectations” & Unrealistic Standards for Mothers

Nicole 20:10

Yes.

Emily 20:11

I've nannied before.

Dani 20:13

Yeah, that was me. That was me, yeah, like overconfident, no clue what you're doing. I know how to build a house.

Nicole 20:22

Right, right.

Emily 20:23

I've used a hammer.

Dani 20:24

I've seen Bob Vila. Anyway. Sorry.

Nicole 20:27

And I'm gonna share this, and I should also- I'm gonna share this with an apology. I was a school counselor before I started doing outpatient work before I had kids. And when I was a school counselor, I was like, this is not that hard. These kids are so well behaved with me. They tell me all these things. I love working with them. That was because I was not at home with those children.

Emily 20:48

Those little monsters.

Dani 20:50

You were not saying, excuse me, when was the last time you showered, sir?

Nicole 20:57

Correct. Correct.

Dani 20:58

Don't tell me two or three days ago. It's been longer. I can tell.

Nicole 21:04

Yep.

Emily 21:04

Also, two or three days is still a wrong answer.

Dani 21:07

I know. Yeah.

Nicole 21:10

So, yes. So violated expectations is this idea, right? That we go into parenting with these expectations, but also there's all of these societal expectations, right? So there's the expectations we have of ourselves, and then there's these external expectations, right? And for mothers, those expectations, um, at least in our culture, right? And in our country in America, are pretty clear, right? What those expectations are. And the expectations are, you know, that mothers will be blissful and calm and happy and gentle all of the time, right? And at least that's like the current trend, right? And then when you don't meet those expectations, the idea is that you have done something terribly, terribly wrong, right? And what happens is we internalize those expectations. And so then the violated expectations or this idea that the expectations we have violated external expectations and we've violated internal expectations, right? So yes, and then what's the conclusion? I have failed, right? Not that the system has failed me, not that there's something wrong with these expectations. It's I have not met these expectations, which are essentially not meetable, right? That's like not a thing. Or let's be honest, right? A lot of times when dads mess up, it's funny.

Dani 22:26

Oh, yeah.

Nicole 22:27

So I mean, I think we need like to be really honest about that. So one of the things, like at the very beginning of my presentation this summer, I talk about how in the literature what we're talking about is referred to as maternal rage. And I am using that term to refer to anyone who identifies as a mother in a motherhood role, right? But it is also important to talk about the different expectations for someone who identifies as a mother and someone who identifies as a father. Those expectations are really different, right? There's a reason that we're not talking about paternal rage, right? There's a reason that we are talking about maternal rage as a phenomenon. And so I think that that's an important distinction to make. So I use it as an inclusive term, and we still have to look at the expectations piece of it because it actually plays in really heavily to that experience of maternal rage.

Emily 23:17

Yes.

Nicole 23:17

I don't know if you could see the soapbox that I'm standing on, but there is one.

Emily 23:21

It's lovely, actually. It's a great... I really like that one.

Dani 23:26

Yeah, I like what you've done there. Yeah, great soapbox. Uh-huh.

Emily 23:31

Okay, now that we've nerded out a little bit about the journey from the experiences of rage and let's face it, you had reasonable expectations of what parenting would look like and then suddenly pandemic, right? I just would like to preface that. You weren't like, I'm gonna be perfect and I'm gonna skip through a field of flowers, and my children will only eat vegetables. Like you had reasonable expectations and they just weren't met. None of ours were met. How did you go from that to I'm doing a presentation on it? Because were you already providing care to people in the perinatal period at that time? Like, talk us through all that.

From School Counselor to Perinatal Mental Health Specialist

Nicole 24:16

Yeah. So, oh, that is quite a journey. So, um, as I mentioned, I was a school counselor before I had children. And then with my first, so I was planning to take my big 12 weeks of unpaid leave. I worked at a private school, so there was no access to- and a really lovely private school, and I adore them and I still keep in touch with them. So it's not their fault that that's just how in Pennsylvania there's 12 weeks unpaid leave, and that's all we get.

Emily 24:44

Yeah.

Nicole 24:44

Unless your employer offers something more and they did not have the ability to do that. So I was gonna take my big 12 weeks of unpaid leave, and then I was gonna return to my job as a school counselor. And because of the postpartum experience that I had, and the school was- it was quite a commute. It was 45 minutes in each direction.

Emily 25:03

Oh.

Nicole 25:04

I honestly didn't, with the amount of sleep that I was getting and the way that I was feeling, it literally wasn't safe for me to drive, for me to drive five minutes, let alone to drive 45 minutes to work every day back and through an hour and a half round trip commute. It just wasn't safe. And I wasn't feeling– I wasn't physically up to it, I wasn't emotionally up to it. It just, I was in such a state that I could not return to work. And so I had to make the very difficult decision of taking what I call an extended maternity leave. So I ended up taking a full year of unpaid leave, which is super fun. Um... and yeah.

Emily 25:46

That's sarcasm, listeners.

Nicole 25:48

Yes. So- and I also recognized, even though it was a challenge for our family, just the fact that we were able to do that is still in many ways a privilege, right? So it's this weird thing where it was like it was hard for us, but it was still a privilege because many people don't even have that option. So at least I had that option, even though it wasn't ideal and it wasn't the option that I wanted to take. And at the end of that year, I was so ready to get back to paid work. My son was in such a better place medically, and he's a very- he still is a very social little guy. So like he was ready for something more than like hanging out with me all day long and going to the Y. That was our big thing that we did. And so yeah, and I had my license. Um, and so at that point, I decided to move into outpatient care. So I went from the school setting, I went and I worked for a really large group practice in the area that was a three-minute commute from my house, which was like brilliant. So I went from an hour and a half round trip to six minutes door to door, which was pretty freaking amazing.

Dani 26:52

Yeah, it's hard to beat that.

Nicole 26:53

And it was a really, it was a really great experience. I had a wonderful supervisor. The group that I worked with was really lovely. And so that was my first experience in outpatient care. And then once I had my second, I really started to think about, you know, who do I serve? Because when I was working for the big group practice, I was a generalist. I saw everybody, I saw couples, I saw kids, I saw adolescents, I saw adults individually. That was just the type of practice that it was. I saw everyone. And I learned through that experience that who I really work with best and who I felt like I served best, not surprisingly, was moms. And I really wanted to then focus on perinatal mental health. So after having my second, I took the PSI trainings, I got my certification, I did all of that. And then my second, once he was a couple years old, I started putting things in motion for my private practice. And that's where I am now. My private practice is about– not about– my private practice just turned five in September, which is pretty wild. Happy birthday. Happy belated birthday, private practice. Thank you. So that's how I ended up in private practice, specializing in perinatal mental health. And then I should backtrack a little bit. Before I was even a school counselor, I actually was in sales and marketing. Interesting. Yep. So I graduated um with my undergraduate degree was in industrial organizational psychology, mostly because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, and that was just kind of interesting. And then I had friends that were in sales and marketing, and I was like, that looks like fun, and they give you a company car. So I was like, I like that.

Emily 28:28

Sign me up.

From Personal Experience to PSI Conference Presentation

Nicole 28:29

And you know, and that was right out of college. I was like, oh, that sounds good. And so I did that for a few years, and then I was like, oh, this is not a good fit for me. And then that's how I ended up in graduate school and that whole piece. So the way that connects to the PSI presentation is being in sales and marketing for six years, you get desensitized to people telling you no. That's part of the job, part of your training in sales is that you have to close the deal, right? You have to ask people to sign the contract or, you know, buy the product or whatever it is, right? And so I kind of got desensitized to that. And I, you know, I had managers that would say, you know, the worst thing that a customer can say is no. And then you move on, right? And you don't take it personally, because if you take it personally, you'll be miserable, right? And so the way I came to the PSI presentation, well, first of all, maternal rage was coming up a lot in my sessions with clients. I had personally experienced it. I was seeing it reflected quite a bit in social media. And so the conversation around maternal rage was changing. And so I remember when um, you know, there's a proposal period that comes out before the conference. And so the conference is in July and the proposals are due in like January.

Emily 29:49

Beginning of January. Mark your calendars, folks.

Nicole 29:51

Yes. And I think the call for proposals comes out in like November, December. And I remember, you know, I got the email. I'm on all the PSI email lists, and I got the proposal, and I was like, you know what? So this is actually what I said to myself. And I think I've had a number of colleagues ask me about this particular experience. And so I saw the call for proposals and I remember thinking to myself, I would like to present at PSI at some point in my career, not now, because I'm not ready.

Dani 30:22

You know what? Are we ever ready fully for anything? I mean, do we ever feel like, you know what?

Nicole 30:29

Right. That's the lesson. That was what I actually said to myself. I'm not ready. This will be my practice round. So I'm gonna submit this proposal.

Dani 30:37

Oh, right. Nailed it.

Nicole 30:40

Yep. I'm gonna go through the motions fully expecting that they're gonna say no. Because why would they say yes to me? Like they don't know who I am, right? I'm just gonna try this out. And then when they say no, maybe I'll even ask them for feedback. And that so next time when I'm ready, then I'll have a better proposal and maybe they'll accept it.

Dani 31:01

That's a really great growth mindset, by the way.

Nicole 31:04

And so that was how I got over the fear of submitting the proposal because I was like, they're gonna say no. So I lowered the stakes. I was like, it doesn't matter because they're gonna say no. I remember the moment where the email came through that my proposal was accepted. So it was in February. It was typical chaotic after school. My kids are doing homework. I'm trying to get dinner on the table, and I hear the thing on my phone beep that I got an email. Yep. And I go and look at it, and I saw that it was for the conference. So my expectation was gonna be like, thank you, but sorry. But I saw that it said congratulat- The first word was congratulations, and I was like,

Dani 31:43

Congratu-what?!

Nicole 31:45

The sound that I made scared my children. The squeal, that's the only way- that like came out of me. They were like, Mom, what's- are you okay? Is everybody- because they saw me looking at my phone and then this noise came out of me, so they thought I got some like terrible news. And here's the other piece– um, PSI just asked for a proposal. They don't ask for your full presentation. The presentation did not exist.

Emily 32:12

Yeah, I know. Same.

Nicole 32:14

It did not exist. So then I was like, oh, I better start working.

Emily 32:21

I have homework.

Nicole 32:23

Because the only thing that exists is the outline that they asked me for. Like, what do I do now? I didn't think they were gonna say yes. So that is how- that is my very wild ride.

Emily 32:35

Okay, first of all, can we normalize that that is how it happens for so many people?

Nicole 32:41

Oh good.

Emily 32:42

Number one. And number two, I've been in with the people who review. I have never done the reviewing, but I've been in conversations with them about reviewing those things. It is always like, what's the hottest topic right now? So the fact that you were like, hmm, this seems relevant right now. People are ready to talk about it. It's like, is it a hot topic? Is what you want to say on it flushed out enough that they know that you can put together a presentation? Because most of us do not already have that sitting and laying in wait. Yes, like that is the process, very normal. And also, yay, yay for you.

Nicole 33:26

It was wild.

Dani 33:29

Oh my gosh.

The Power of Talking About Maternal Rage

Emily 33:30

So good.

Nicole 33:31

Yes. So that is how I arrived on that stage with this...

Emily 33:36

In a mosh pit of people, basically.

Nicole 33:38

It was unr- I mean, can we just talk about for a minute? So, one of the things that I purposely added into my presentation was audience participation because I am probably the least patient therapist that you will ever meet. Like, patience is not a virtue that I like. So, like I want my clients to get results. Like, it is just that is how I live my life. And so when I was putting together the presentation, I was like, I really want the audience to be engaged. So there's many points in the presentation where I specifically ask for audience participation, right? And so I had the- could we shout out to Cody? I had the loveliest room host.

Emily 34:19

Also a pod guest.

Nicole 34:20

Yeah. Oh, she's the best. So for people who weren't there, a room host is when so you have the presenter and then you have somebody who is helping you with audience participation, with like the audio visual stuff, with locking the doors when too many people come into the room.

Dani 34:36

Cody didn't know what she was signing up for,

Emily 34:39

Dude. Yeah.

Nicole 34:41

It was wild. So she was doing essentially the audience participation piece. So, like I had my mic, and then she had another mic that we would turn on, and she would go out into the audience and you know, and encourage audience participation. At one point, when we were asking for audience participation, the attendees just stopped waiting for the mic and started standing on chairs and just screaming things out. And you can actually hear it during the like official recording. So people were so hyped and so into the topic that they were like, I'm not waiting for that mic to get passed to me. I'm standing on my chair and I'm screaming things out. So that was the- the mood in the room was just electric. Like it was, in addition to being a presentation, it was also like a group therapy session.

Dani 35:28

When you were standing up there. Did you have moments where you're like, oh my goodness, we're just real engaged? Like, did you have kind of like an out-of-body experience, or were you able to kind of stay in it or in the moment?

Nicole 35:42

No, no, not at all.

Dani 35:43

Were you just like what's happening? Okay.

Nicole 35:46

I broke, and you can hear it in the recording. I broke multiple times during the presentation because I was laughing so hard that I was crying

Dani 35:54

Awe.

Nicole 35:54

Because we were just having the best time. You know, it was a release, right? It was this huge release.

Emily 36:02

That was palpable on the recording.

Nicole 36:04

And one of the things that we talk about, right, as an intervention for maternal rage, right? That comes up in the research and that we felt in that room was just talking about it, just getting it out there, right? And recognizing there are hundreds of people in this room and they all feel the same way and they all want to talk about this. What a relief when I tell my clients that there is a name. So sometimes labels are bad, sometimes they're good. When I tell my clients there is a name for this thing that you are experiencing, and there are interventions and there is support, and this isn't your fault. The relief is just– you can feel it. And so you could feel the relief in that room and the laughter in that room was part of that release. I tell people all the time, because when people think of therapy, I think they think of like the sad parts of therapy and the traumatic parts of therapy, which absolutely those exist. But I don't think people realize the joy that there is in the work that I get to do and how hard we laugh sometimes in the therapy room, and how hard we were laughing during a presentation on maternal rage, not because the topic is funny, but because it was such a release and it was such a relief to know that there is a name and there's interventions, and like we are all experiencing this at the same time. And it was really, it was like such a moving experience. And one of the ways that I kind of, because this was the other thing I've been asked, like, oh, how many times have you presented on this? I was like, zero. This was my first time ever presenting on this topic. This was my first time ever presenting in front of such a large audience. I'd done like small continuing education presentations before, nothing like this. And so I've had colleagues ask me, like, well, then how did you get to the place where you could even do that? And I was like, well, I'm glad that it didn't look like I was having a heart attack because I felt like I was. My heart rate was up to 160 beats a minute at certain points.

Emily 38:12

Your Fitbit was like, are you okay?

Nicole 38:15

My Fitbit thought I ran a marathon during that hour-long presentation. So, first of all, sometimes you just have to do things scared, but I wasn't necessarily scared. I was mostly excited.

Dani 38:28

Yeah.

Nicole 38:28

The way that I kind of pumped myself up for the actual presentation is it just so happened that this year during the conference was um it was Olympic time, like the Olympics were going on. It's no secret. I'm in my 40s, and so when I was in like I guess high school, it was the 1996 Olympics, and there was a really, really well-known- um the women's gymnastics teams from the United States, like-

Dani 38:54

Oh yeah.

Nicole 38:54

They were huge that year. So that was like Shannon Miller and and that whole team, right? And so those gymnasts are now in their 40s, and many of them are moms. And I read this really beautiful article where Shannon Miller specifically talked about how that was her last Olympics, and she knew it was her last Olympics, and she was going into her last event, and she thought to herself, I cannot prepare for this moment anymore. I can't. I've done everything I possibly could to prepare for this moment, and now I'm just gonna have fun. So when I was on that stage and people were pouring into- so I read that like right, like literally a day or two before I left for the conference. And so I'm standing on that stage and people are pouring into the room, and I have to give a shout out to my Philly crew of therapists. They parked themselves right- they got there early.

Dani 39:42

Philly crew in the house.

Nicole 39:44

My Philly crew, they parked themselves right in the middle of the room, right in front of the stage, so that I could see them if I needed them. They were there for me. I kept looking at them, like my eyes getting real big, looking around the room, like, do you believe? I started taking pictures of the audience pouring into the room, and I was getting so amped. And then I remembered that article that I read where Shannon Miller talked about, I can't prepare anymore for this moment. Now I just need to have fun. And that's kind of what I said to myself. I was like...

Dani 40:11

Wow.

Nicole 40:12

So from February until July, you know, I actually started putting the presentation together and preparing for it, going over it. My partner has heard that presentation so many times. I did it in front of a colleague. So like I could not have been, there was nothing else that I could have done to prepare. I just had to have fun. And clearly people were ready. And so I was like, now I just need to show up and really be present in this moment and see what happens. And things happened during that presentation. So that is the very long answer to your question, Emily, of how I got to the presentation.

Emily 40:52

I love it. I love it. There's so many important takeaways in what you just said.

Dani 40:59

I think people probably will like to hear like little behind the scenes of presenting at the PSI conference because you know there's a lot of people that are interested. There's a lot of interest in doing that, so.

Emily 41:10

Yes. And your episode is gonna air basically, like right before that's open again. So it'll be really well timed for people who are listening and they're like on the fence. It's like, what's the worst that happens? Like, you get to try again next year? It's fine. Do it.

Dani 41:27

Or you're presenting, you're on a stage in July.

Emily 41:31

Surprise! You're in New Orleans in July, crowd surfing. Basically.

Dani 41:41

That's not what happens.

Emily 41:43

No, that's what Cody did in order to get the audience participation.

Dani 41:48

Yeah.

Nicole 41:49

That is what she did.

Dani 41:51

Yeah.

Emily 41:51

Like she just fell backwards and held the microphone.

Dani 41:56

Trust fall. No. It's really cool though that we're talking about this. You know, this was probably about a year ago or so. I mean, about, that the email went out, you know, just saying, hey, call for proposals, right?

Nicole 42:10

Yep.

Dani 42:11

One year later, here we are in the podcast studio.

Nicole 42:15

Yep.

Dani 42:16

Picking your brain. I was curious when did PSI come onto your radar? Did you, I mean, you were a school counselor when you became a parent. Did you know about PSI at all? Or was it kind of like later that you learned about PSI when you were like, you know, I think I want to really be supporting folks, like moms specifically? Tell us more.

Nicole 42:39

That's such a great question. So um, I wish I had known about PSI after I had my first. So one of the things I'm so thankful for, and one of the reasons that I'm such a big fan of PSI is because in 12 years, which is honestly not that long of a time.

Dani 42:55

It's a blip.

Nicole 42:56

Yes, the landscape in terms of perinatal mental health and the support that exists, it's astronomical, the change and the shift that has occurred. And so after having my first, I struggled to find support. And I live in a major metropolitan area, one hour outside of a major East Coast city. And I struggled to find a therapist who specialized in postpartum depression, right? And that is wild to me because now, my understanding is that there are over 5,000 therapists that have the perinatal mental health certification. Like that is unbelievable to me. And I'm so, so thankful for that. So, no, I did not know about PSI after I had my first. So I was very lucky. So I struggled to find a therapist who specialized, but it just so happened that the hospital where I gave birth and the OB Office that delivered my son, they had a postpartum adjustment support group that they ran for- yes, which was so so rare at the time.

Dani 44:09

Yeah.

Nicole 44:09

They ran that group for 13 years. 13 years. And it was run by the same nurse practitioner and same hospital social worker for 13 years. So once a month for 13 years, they ran this support group. I'm still in touch with both of them today. They are- they're the best.

Dani 44:31

Oh, wow. What lifesavers to have that peer support available.

Nicole 44:36

Yes. It was amazing. The two women who facilitated that group are amazing. And I just, I feel so lucky to have found them. And then thankfully, so my kids are four years apart. When I was pregnant with my second, I am as type A as type A gets. And I was like, I learned from my experience last time. I don't want to have that experience again where I'm floundering postpartum and trying to find support. I want the support lined up. Like I literally want a color-coded binder.

Dani 45:06

I want a flow chart. Am I feeling this?

Nicole 45:09

That's exactly right. Yes. That was exactly my plan. And so I reached out to a colleague who specialized, and she was like, oh, you just call the PSI warm line and they help you find a therapist. And I was like, the what? What-

Emily 45:26

Come again?

Nicole 45:27

What is this that you speak of? There is a phone number that I can call, and somebody who is trained is gonna help me find a therapist who specializes in this. Like, is this even real? And it was.

Dani 45:39

Oh, it's real.

Nicole 45:40

And I spoke to the loveliest support person for southeastern Pennsylvania, who I'm also still in touch with today because she is a lovely, lovely human and therapist. And she helped me to find someone. And I'm so, so thankful for that experience with my- and then, of course, with my second, I had a very different experience and didn't need as much support, but I was still so grateful to have it. And I was also so grateful to that introduction to PSI and all of the work that they did because once after I had my second and I was like, oh, I think I want to do this work, I was already familiar with a lot of the great work. So that was my introduction to PSI, and I'm still so grateful for it and for all of the work that they do because I think it's really unbelievable. I mean, it went from being difficult to find a therapist who specialized to now there is just the most wonderful abundance of therapists. Like now, now you can be picky. Now you can be like, I want to use insurance, I'm okay with private pay, I want online therapy, I want to go in person. Then it was just like, I just need somebody. Just get me to somebody who knows this specialty.

Emily 46:51

Who isn't gonna tell me to calm down.

Nicole 46:53

Oh my God, please stop telling moms calm down, please.

Dani 46:59

Yeah, yeah.

Nicole 47:00

The shift has been, it has been just amazing to witness that shift in the field. And I just I keep coming back to the point that I'm so grateful for. And honestly, I'm so grateful to be part of it. And I'm so– like I wear my certification from PSI, like if they made jackets with like the- I would wear it. Like maybe that needs to be like the next merch situation. I would wear it.

Dani 47:26

Oh no.

Nicole 47:26

Like, or like a sash,

Dani 47:28

I've got ideas.

Nicole 47:29

give it to me.

Emily 47:32

PMH-C type, like bridesmaid or turning 40, but PMH-C.

Nicole 47:39

That's right. That's right.

Dani 47:40

Or you're just like walking down the street and you like pull your jacket open and it's like silk lined with a PMH-C logo inside.

Nicole 47:47

I love it. Love it. Yep, yep.

Emily 47:48

Or you're a pink lady, it's Grease.

Nicole 47:52

There's clearly potential here.

Emily 47:54

Let's flesh this out. We're gonna have you put on your marketing hat later and we're gonna flesh this out.

Dani 47:59

Yeah, yeah. You're not getting rid of us this easy, Nicole. We have ideas. Okay.

Emily 48:05

Yeah. We're gonna have to hang out and discuss over one with cheese, you know? Yeah.

Nicole 48:11

Just not at the Liberty Bell.

Emily 48:13

Not at the Liberty Bell.

Lightning Round

Dani 48:16

Okay. We're having way too much fun. I was wondering, do both of you feel like you're ready to hop into the lightning round real quick?

Emily 48:25

Oh yeah.

Nicole 48:26

I'm ready. I'm ready.

Dani 48:28

Great. Okay, Nicole. Dun dun dun. First question. Besides this podcast, what is your second favorite podcast if you would like to suggest anything to our lovely listeners?

Nicole 48:39

Sure. I do have a second favorite podcast.

Dani 48:42

Interesting.

Nicole 48:43

Yes, that is a thing for me. Um, I am, as I've mentioned, and as we can tell from this interview, I'm generally a pretty intense person. The work that I do with clients is very- it's really intense work, right? And I definitely bring my whole self to it. And so when I'm listening to a podcast that is not this podcast, I need something frequently that's a little bit lighter, kind of ridiculous. I love to laugh. For me, laughter is like medicine.

Dani 49:14

Oh, yeah.

Nicole 49:14

There is this podcast called How Did This Get Made?

Dani 49:18

Oh.

Nicole 49:19

Sounds like an engineering podcast, but it is not. It is a podcast about the most ridiculous movies that ever got made. And so most of the movies that they talk about on this podcast, I have not only never seen, but also never heard of, but it's so funny, and they fully bring you into the story and how ridiculous these particular movies are.

Emily 49:46

Like Snakes on a Plane.

Nicole 49:48

Yes, yes, exactly the type of movies that they review on this podcast. Like one of my favorite episodes is on Teen Witch.

Dani 50:00

Oh.

Nicole 50:00

Because that was from when I was a kid.

Emily 50:03

Yeah.

Nicole 50:03

And it is just an absurd movie, and they take you through the movie from beginning to end in all of its absurdity. It's three actors, and they're actors from shows that I love, like Parks and Rec and A Good Place. And so they're character actors. Yeah, I'm forgetting their names right now, but they're hysterical, and it is so light and so funny and such an escape for me. And I just love it for that. So I'll just be like doing the dishes, laughing hysterically. My kids have no idea what I am laughing at.

Emily 50:35

What's so funny? And you're like, it's not for you.

Nicole 50:37

Yes, it is not for them. It is not a kid friendly pod, by the way. It's not a kid-friendly podcast, but it is adult-friendly and it is hysterical, and I love it.

Dani 50:46

Can I just throw something in there? I know this is not like a clinical intervention, but you know, since we've been talking about mom rage and, you know, having big big feelings and parenting and uh listening to a funny podcast for me really does help me sort of like come back to center, you know, much like exercise or like um, I don't know, listening to music or something. Like if I can laugh and kind of disconnect from somebody that's a teenager being real mad at me for basically breathing, or you know, like just hypothetical example there.

Nicole 51:24

No, now I have to point out, right? So one of the things that leads to maternal rage is compromised need. So, like a compromise- we talked about sleep, but a compromised need could also be overstimulation. So if you're overstimulated, then what helps is decompression. In my mind, what better decompression is there than just laughing so hysterically at the most ridiculous thing, like things that are like low stakes, like really silly movies, right? And so yes, that is absolutely therapeutic in the- I think in the best way.

Dani 51:55

Yeah. Thanks for like getting nerdy real quick about that.

Nicole 51:59

Yeah.

Emily 51:59

Speaking of um character actors, see how I'm tying it in? Are you currently binge watching or reading, maybe? Anything that we need to put into our queue?

Nicole 52:15

Okay, so now I'm gonna go in a completely different direction. Have either of you seen The Wild Robot?

Dani 52:22

No.

Nicole 52:23

Okay, so then I must prepare you.

Emily 52:25

Is this the one that makes people cry?

Nicole 52:27

Not just cry, but like full-on sobbing. So my kids have both read The Wild Robot. So it's a series of there's three books, it's a series. And my kids are not big movie kids. They like shows, but they don't necessarily love movies. So when the trailer came out and they had read the books and they saw the trailer, they immediately asked to go see the movie. And I was like, they never ask to go to the movies. Yes, we are absolutely going to the movies. So this sounds amazing. And then I watched the trailer and I was like, this seems like kind of an emotional. And then so I asked them, like, is this? And they were like, yeah, yeah, you know, it's emotional, but it's a really good story. We think you're gonna like it. And then I like to be– this is so funny, because even though I'm type A, I still like surprises, especially in art. So, like in books, in music, in movies, I don't want to know when I'm getting into. For example, I went to see, I had the opportunity to see Wicked on Broadway this summer. That show has been out for 20 years. I did not know, other than it's about the two witches in Oz, I didn't know anything else about the story.

Emily 53:32

Same.

Nicole 53:32

And on purpose, I didn't want to know. And so I went into The Wild Robot the same way. So I specifically asked my kids to not tell me kind of the general theme of the story because I wanted to be, because we hardly ever go to the movies, I wanted the experience of being surprised and being very present. Thankfully, they told me that I at a minimum should bring some tissues.

Dani 53:56

At a minimum?

Nicole 53:57

At a minimum, they were like, you might want to bring some tissues. And I was like, okay, especially the older one was like, uh, need to really bring some tissues. And I was like, okay. And so we're in the movie theater, and I mean, the movie is like at least an hour and a half long. 20 minutes in, it's not like the the gentle like tears rolling down. No, we're talking like full on sobbing.

Emily 54:22

Like heaving chest. Oh god.

Nicole 54:25

One of the- so I'm not gonna ruin it for you, but one of the major themes of the movie is about maternal love and the power of maternal love. And I was like, you guys could have told me that. That still wouldn't have ruined the story for me. I didn't know that that was serious. I didn't know. Really, I sobbed most of the movie and talk about like a catharsis, like it really, it's just so well done and so beautiful. And my eight-year-old was like patting me on the back because he heard me crying during the movie. They were like worried about me because I was crying so hard in the movie. But I also think that that was good for them to see, like, you know, it's okay to be emotional, and then to make me feel better, they were like, oh, we got a little choked up, we got a little teary. And then I turned to them and I was like, why didn't you tell me that this was gonna be like this? And they just looked at me and they were like, because you told us not to. And I was like, why is this the time that you listened? Why was this- this was the moment that you picked to do the thing that I asked you to?

Emily 55:27

Those 3,000 times I asked you to put your shoes on, you could not have been bothered at all. But this time...

Nicole 55:34

They listened, they did not tell me anything, and they were very proud of that, and I sobbed.

Dani 55:41

So, anyway, everybody should go watch it.

Nicole 55:44

It's so good, it's so good, but bring tissues.

Dani 55:47

Okay, I've seen the preview and I was intrigued. So now I'm like, it's nice to have a good, like, therapeutic cry every once in a while.

Nicole 55:55

Yes, it's beautiful.

Emily 55:57

I'm gonna wait till I can watch it at home under a weighted blanket.

Nicole 56:02

Yes, also a good option. Yes.

Dani 56:05

Nicole, what is your best parenting hack?

Nicole 56:08

Uh, so for me, it's the idea of embracing good enough parenting, because parenting is hard. And, you know, we've talked about expectations and just how out of control expectations are, especially for mothers, and there's expectations for everything, how you feed your kids, how you engage with them and their education, how you dress them, everything. There's expectations for everything in terms of how we care for our children. So I talk to clients a lot about finding what is a good fit for you and your family rather than living up to some arbitrary expectations that are honestly nonsense and don't make a whole lot of sense anyway. And so for me, the idea of good enough parenting is like balm, right? It's just this, oh, I'm getting all these messages about what this type of parenting needs to be like. And it's just like, no, that this is just good. Like a weekday dinner that I could just warm up really quickly is good enough, right? Going to soccer with the stuff packed, like we get there a minute before it starts, good enough, right? Like it just-

Dani 57:24

Be there in time.

Nicole 57:25

Good enough parenting is the best kind of parent. It just has to be good enough. It doesn't have to be perfect. And as somebody who fully owns up to being a recovering perfectionist, it has really been a wonderful, wonderful shift for me.

Dani 57:43

I had a sticky note sitting on my computer screen for quite a while with a quote from my therapist who said, Dani, start with good enough. And I had to read that every day because oh man. It's hard to get started if you don't think you're doing good enough. But it's okay. Just start with good enough.

Nicole 58:03

Yep.

Dani 58:04

Emily, I think I almost took the next question from you.

Emily 58:08

What? Parenting hack?

Dani 58:10

Mm-hmm. Did you ask it?

Emily 58:12

No, you asked that.

Dani 58:13

Okay, now it's your turn. It's very lightning. This round is so fast.

Emily 58:18

It's so fast.

Nicole 58:20

We can't even keep up.

Emily 58:21

Buckle up, people.

Dani 58:23

Yeah.

Emily 58:24

Questions are flying.

Dani 58:25

We're about to get a speeding ticket.

Emily 58:28

This question is one that Dani and I discuss off pod all the time. What is one way that you will show yourself radical love? Because I think the question is strange and she loves it. And I'm like, radical! I don't understand.

Dani 58:49

I feel attacked.

Nicole 58:52

I will give you my interpretation of it. I think it is a lovely question.

Dani 58:57

Thanks, Nicole.

Nicole 58:58

This is what I think about. So, and this is honestly probably gonna seem like an odd answer. So we are recording in October. I'm in Pennsylvania, and the thing that I am gonna do is go swimming. Inside. There is a backstory to this. So I am somebody who considers myself fairly athletic. I was a three-sport athlete in high school. I feel my best when I am in motion, but I am a terrible- This is like- this- so I had to get over this because this was honestly embarrassing for me for a really long time. I am a really bad swimmer. So I can do what I call survival swimming. Like I won't sink.

Emily 59:38

Right.

Nicole 59:38

But I can't do like any of like I can't do any of the strokes besides like a rudiment- Yeah. Like I can do, I guess what's like a rudimentary freestyle, but even that's being pretty generous. And so my kids are both now, thankfully, better swimmers than I am. And they have been asking me to go and take adult swim lessons because I'm such a bad swimmer.

Dani 1:00:02

You're not an expert yet.

Nicole 1:00:04

Yeah, exactly.

Dani 1:00:05

Not bad. You're not an expert yet.

Nicole 1:00:07

One of the reasons I didn't do it is because one, I didn't feel like I had the time because my life is very full and very busy. But mostly I was embarrassed. I was like, I'm in my 40s and I gotta take, you know, I don't know how to do the backstroke. Like, what- this is embarrassing. And so finally this fall, I found– because I was kind of like looking on the periphery– and I found a really lovely teacher who does private swim lessons at a private pool. It is indoors, the pool is heated, and I messaged her and I was like, do you do adult swim lessons? And she was like, I love working with adults. And I was like...

Dani 1:00:47

Oh.

Nicole 1:00:47

I got somebody who's interested.

Dani 1:00:51

Psst, it's me.

Emily 1:00:52

As someone who has taught swim lessons before, teaching adult swim lessons is so much better, right?

Nicole 1:00:59

Oh, good. I was gonna- I thought you were gonna say it's so bad.

Emily 1:01:03

They're so invested in the process where like the kids are thrust into this because the parents are like, I don't want you to drown at the pool this summer, or I want to be able to like read a book at the beach someday, right?

Nicole 1:01:16

Yes.

Emily 1:01:16

Adults are like, I wanna know some things.

Nicole 1:01:20

And I'm not afraid. The thing is, I'm not afraid of the water. I actually like the water. I just couldn't move around very efficiently in it.

Dani 1:01:28

Yes. Yes.

Nicole 1:01:29

And so I think that has made the lessons a lot more enjoyable because I actually like being in the pool and I am enjoying learning how to move my body efficiently in the water to like get from place to place in the pool. So I've really, that is a way that I feel like I'm showing myself love, is by like, I was really bad at this thing. I was really embarrassed about being bad at this thing. And so I am totally being vulnerable and I am showing up with the understanding that I do not know how to do this. I found someone who is kind and compassionate, but also competent and really good at teaching me how to do this thing. And I actually look- I did not think I was gonna look forward to lessons. I actually look forward to it now. For me, setting that time aside is a big deal. Like that was an act of radical self-love in saying, you know, I don't actually have the time to do this, but I'm gonna make the time because this is so important to me. And so my goal is to like really be on the move in the water by the summer. So I'll keep you updated.

Emily 1:02:32

Yes, I want to be updated on this. How do you sleep on the days that you go?

Nicole 1:02:39

Oh my goodness. So this teacher, like I mentioned, is so lovely. And after the first, and like I said, I'm pretty athletic, like I work out quite a bit. And so I was like, oh, this is like the athletic piece of it, is not gonna be hard, like the cardio piece of it. And this is what the instructor said to me. She said, oh, you're a land athlete. That doesn't always translate.

Dani 1:03:00

Yes, I am too.

Nicole 1:03:02

I'd never heard that term. She called me a land athlete and it was not a compliment.

Dani 1:03:07

You know what? That's just rude. Emily grew up as a swimmer and I played soccer. I dabble still in running, but one of my main points to Emily about swimming was that I don't live there in that water. Okay? I was not born there. If I'm tired, I can't just stop. Now, if I'm on a trail or something, I could just come to a screeching halt, lay on the ground if I need to, find a bench. You know what I mean? Like...

Nicole 1:03:39

Yes.

Dani 1:03:40

What if you're like open water swimming? I just don't get it. I'm a land creature. I'm a land athlete. Okay.

Nicole 1:03:46

Right there with you.

Dani 1:03:47

I'm with you. High five. High five. Nicole, if anybody else is a land athlete, um, or maybe they're interested in connecting with you for reasons outside of exercising. Uh, maybe to talk about perinatal mental health, about rage, about they just have some questions for you, or they–

Emily 1:04:08

They're an Eagles fan. They want to talk about the Eagles like all the time.

Dani 1:04:12

Well, Nicole didn't say she's an Eagles fan.

Nicole 1:04:15

I am not originally from this area. I've lived here for 20 years now, basically my entire adult life, but like the Eagles thing is still a little bit foreign to me. My kids are Eagles fans, so like I will indulge them, but I can't say I am fully there because it is a... it is a thing.

Emily 1:04:33

Yeah.

Nicole 1:04:33

It's a thing.

Dani 1:04:34

Well, okay, maybe not to talk about Eagles stuff, but if anybody would like to get a hold of you, what is the best way for them to do that?

Nicole 1:04:43

Sure. So I have a website for my practice, so that's nicolemcnelis.com. And then I am also active on Instagram, and my handle on Instagram is therapistmomcollective.

Dani 1:04:56

We will put links to all the things in the show notes. Um, we have two more questions, and I think maybe Emily should ask both of them. Well, you know what? Can I ask one of them and then you ask the last one?

Emily 1:05:06

Yeah.

Dani 1:05:07

Just to switch things up a little bit. We always ask because we want to make sure all of our guests are hydrated. Nicole, how do you take your water? Bubbles, no bubbles, flavor, ice? Tell us.

Nicole 1:05:17

Here's my water. So I am a little extra with my water.

Dani 1:05:22

Oh.

Nicole 1:05:22

I have a- so I'll take you through the whole thing. So we have a double-walled bottle because we cannot have sweaty water bottles.

Emily 1:05:28

Amen.

Nicole 1:05:28

Right. We've got the reusable straw, but then in the water bottle, so we have some ice, but then we also- don't know if you can see it, we have lemon, cucumber, and ginger.

Dani 1:05:37

Oh, snap!

Nicole 1:05:38

It's really good. And because I am type A, like I don't have time every day to like be cutting up a lemon and ginger and cucumber. I cut them in batches and I freeze it.

Dani 1:05:48

That's so smart.

Nicole 1:05:49

And then every day I just pull out my lemon, my ginger, and my cucumber and throw it in my water bottle.

Emily 1:05:56

You got ice cubes in your water.

Nicole 1:05:58

Yes.

Dani 1:05:59

Not only is that smart, that's cost efficient.

Emily 1:06:02

So ice cubes that double as flavor.

Nicole 1:06:06

Yes.

Emily 1:06:06

Double walled.

Nicole 1:06:08

Yep.

Emily 1:06:08

Through a straw, no bubbles.

Nicole 1:06:10

Correct.

Emily 1:06:11

Write that down, people.

Dani 1:06:13

You heard it here first.

Nicole 1:06:15

It's an original recipe, yes.

Emily 1:06:17

Oh my gosh. Okay. What is one thing that today you wishes that you could hop in a little time machine, go back and say to pre-recovery you what did you need to hear?

Nicole 1:06:30

As a therapist, I absolutely love this question. I have to say that. But I also feel like this is your Oprah question. I feel like you guys know what you're doing with this question. Where this is the- I've listened to this podcast enough where I know that this is where it's really, it's a very emotional question, right? Especially for someone who does this work but has also experienced it personally. So this is what I would say. I would tell her that I'm sorry for what she experienced. I would tell her that she will find support that will not only sustain her, but will inspire her. And when she is ready and it's gonna take some time, she will turn her pain into her purpose. And when she embraces her purpose, she will be relentless and driven and hopeful. And that someday she will find joy in spaces where she did not think any joy could exist. And that someday, while working to make sure that her clients feel seen and heard, they will laugh so hard together in the therapy room that she will fall out of her chair. That is a true story. That is a true story.

Dani 1:07:34

Awe.

Nicole 1:07:36

And that one day she will be standing on a stage in front of hundreds of colleagues, and her heart will be racing, and there will come a moment in her presentation where she and the audience will laugh so hard that it will bring her to those laugh-crying tears. And that the baby who struggled with sleep will someday ask her not to cheer so loudly from the sidelines. When he scores in soccer, because he is 12 now and she is embarrassing him. And in those moments of joy, she will think back to the moments where the goal was simply survival, and she will be so grateful to be right here, right now. That's what I would tell her.

Episode Closing

Dani 1:08:14

Well, we're all crying. Thanks for saying all the things, and yeah. Nicole asked us to save that question for the last. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. Oh, that's so wonderful.

Nicole 1:08:36

Thank you guys for having me. Thank you for doing this work. I do, I just feel so grateful. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Dani 1:08:44

We absolutely freaking adore you, friend. Emily, can you take us out? I'm just gonna be over here wiping some tears. Go ahead.

Emily 1:08:55

Cool. Okay, Nicole. First of all, thank you for thinking that they would say no when you wrote your presentation proposal. I literally wrote that down. I think that's... it's such a wise way to approach things that are a maybe. And like to not wait for perfect conditions to like put yourself out there, I love that. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for becoming, I don't know, a spokesperson for the rage community. Thank you for making all of us seen that line in your presentation that I will give the edited version of put on your shoes. Because nothing quite captures what maternal rage feels like in the moment when you are trying- I'm gonna cry. When you are trying to push through and be present and be okay, and you aren't. Quite like that line, put on your shoes. To the children out there, please put on your shoes.

Nicole 1:10:09

Thanks again for having me. This was really this was fun. Despite the crying at the end, which is very cathartic, this was super fun. Don't listen to just- don't fast forward the podcast. Listen to the whole thing because we laughed a lot and then we cried. But it was all good.

Emily 1:10:23

And then... and then we cried until my nose started to run, that's awkward.

Dani 1:10:29

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time, and well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.