I AM ONE Podcast by Postpartum Support International

CHRISTOPHER ROSE - I AM ONE Dad Who Went Toe to Toe With Postpartum Depression

• Season 2 • Episode 28

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On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the magnanimous, Mr. Christopher Rose. He’s a Perinatal Anxiety & OCD survivor who volunteers his time at PSI in two capacities: facilitating the Dads Support group once a month and providing support to dads in the Peer Mentor Program. Before becoming a volunteer with PSI, Christopher was a new father struggling to support both his wife's mental health, and his own. Luckily, his wife found PSI and the help that they both needed. We’re absolutely thrilled to bring you this fresh perspective on what it feels like to become a father and why talking about feelings is where it’s at!

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Dani:

On today's episode, we're sitting down with the magnanimous Mr. Christopher Rose. He is a perinatal anxiety and OCD survivor who volunteers his time at PSI in two capacities, facilitating the dad support group once a month and providing support to dads in the peer mentor program. Before becoming a volunteer at PSI, Christopher was a new father struggling to support both his wife's mental health and his own. Luckily, his wife found PSI and the help that they both needed. We are absolutely thrilled to bring you this fresh perspective on what it feels like to become a father and why talking about feelings is where it's at. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the I Am One podcast are the speaker's own. Tuning into this podcast is not a replacement for therapy or any other form of professional help. Our discussions cover personal stories of perinatal mental health disorders and may feel triggering to some listeners. Your number one priority is to take care of yourself. So if you are in need of support, please reach out to the PSI helpline by calling or texting H-E-L-P to 1-800-944-4773 for help in English and in Spanish. At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help, you will be well. Okay, let's get on with the podcast. Chris, welcome to the podcast studio. It is so good to see you again. We first met you in person for the first time this summer at the annual PSI conference in Kansas City. And I had such a great conversation with you. Like I knew that we had to have you on the pod. You were willing from the get go to hop in here with us and we're finally here. So just really glad that you're willing to be here with us and share some of your experience. So thanks.

Chris:

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here finally.

Dani:

You only needed a little bit of a gentle nudge from your wife.

Chris:

More elbow.

Dani:

Who said, has he contacted you yet? Did you do that thing? Did you fill out that form? Anyway, we're so glad that you are either here against your will or are totally willing on your own accord, whatever the case.

Emily:

Blink once if...

Chris:

If you need help?

Emily:

If your wife who's on staff at PSI... No, did not make you do this, but that would be funny.

Dani:

No, no.

Chris:

"I signed you up for multiple things at one time."

Emily:

Listen, every partner does that to their partner. That is just the way of it.

Dani:

Listen, to be clear, Chris was willing to be here. Right, Chris?

Chris:

Of course. Of course. No, anything I can ever do to give back to PSI and everybody that works with PSI, I will definitely gladly lend my time to that.

Emily:

Awesome.

Dani:

Well, Chris, I think without any further ado, could you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Chris:

Yeah. Hey, everybody. I'm Chris Rose. My pronouns are he, him. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. I have a wonderful, beautiful wife, Lisette, who works for PSI. And I have an amazing, strong superhero daughter named Sybil, who is turning three this upcoming Tuesday.

Dani:

Oh!

Emily:

Happy birthday.

Dani:

Happy birthday, Sybil.

Chris:

Oh, yeah. She's growing up fast. But yeah, I follow the podcast and I'm excited to be here with everybody.

Emily:

We're excited to have you.

Dani:

Yeah. Emily, do you want to ask the first question?

Emily:

Why, yes.

Dani:

Or would you like me to ask the first question?

Emily:

I will ask the first question. Okay.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

Chris, can you tell us what role have perinatal mental health complications played in your life? When did they slide into your DMs?

Chris:

Oh, I would say it started early. They started showing up around when my wife was pregnant. Unfortunately, not until later on, me and Lisette didn't really recognize the symptoms. But after we could take a look back when we were clear-minded, we could start to see the signs and the patterns of perinatal mental health starting to decline. And then when my daughter was born, things just snowballed from there. As probably most people will tell you, when you're going through postpartum depression, You know, things feel like, you know, you feel like you're drowning, things snowball really fast, feels like you can't catch your breath, or you're just behind on everything. And that's really how it felt for us. You know, my wife, unfortunately, was going through her symptoms. And I was so focused on, you know, our daughter and, you know, my wife that like, I just put my feelings to the side, put them in the back, and just kind of tried to push forward as best as I could. But you could start to see little increments here and there of where like, you know, I started developing certain types of symptoms like, you know, anxiety, rage, OCD was a big one for me, among other different, you know, symptoms as well. But it wasn't until like, I started going to the PSI groups that I started to learn more about postpartum depression and, you know, how it affects not just moms, but dads. I had no idea that dads could be affected by postpartum depression at all.

Dani:

So were you attending specifically a dad's support group, online support group?

Chris:

Yes, I was. But to larger- I was actually going to the parents' PMAD groups.

Dani:

Oh, cool.

Chris:

Which, you know, a big shout out to Sarah. She was one of my first facilitators that I would join the group. And she was super welcoming. And the moms in that group were so awesome. Sometimes it felt weird because when you're a dad in those groups, you get kind of singled out a little bit. Like, oh, there's a dad here. You know, almost like a unicorn sighting.

Emily:

Were they like asking you to speak on behalf of all dads the way that you do anytime there's one person in a room?

Chris:

Yeah, you start to feel like you're the mouthpiece, excuse me, for dads. And then like, you know, the moms would ask me like, well, how do I get my husband or my boyfriend or my partner to talk about their feelings? And it's like, I don't know them. I don't know. But open communication is an amazing thing. Something me and my wife do daily, even when it's bad communication, you know, communication. But that was like the first group I went to. And that helped me understand postpartum depression from mom's perspective, even more like, you know, my wife, she was going through it. She was telling me, and obviously like, you know, you're talking to your partner, you know, there could be some things you miss. So getting even more information from the other moms just helped give me that insight. And then I started going to the dad's group with John Carr. And back then they only had one group a month. And it was a battle to get into that group. You had to like sign up, like as soon as the registration went up, you have to sign up for it. Otherwise, you're out that month, which then prompted me to like want to be a part of PSI, you know, volunteering to be a dad support group facilitator to bring an extra group to the dads to help push that initiative forward.

Emily:

That's awesome. Can I ask a follow up question?

Chris:

Yeah.

Emily:

When you first saw or in hindsight, what were some of those like first symptoms? Like what did they look like? What did they feel like for people who, I don't know, might be trying to look back and figure out like where the beginning of the roll downhill was, you know?

Chris:

Yeah. No, that's a great question. I think for me, it was like starting to see characteristics that I never showed as a child or even as a young adult or even as an adult. Right? I grew up a very happy-go-lucky kid. I didn't experience anxiety or depression or nervousness. I was just kind of a cool, calm kid. That's just how I was. And then I started to see the change in me where it was like everything made me irritable. Everything was like, even like we'd put our daughter down to sleep and then I would get mad because the cats were meowing. Because any little sound, right, would wake her up. And then in hindsight, I'm looking at it, my daughter sleeps like a rock. That's not going to wake her up. She's a great sleeper.

Emily:

Like trains could go by.

Chris:

Yeah. Totally. Trains go by our house and nothing wakes her up. She sleeps like a rock, like I said. But it was those little things that I started to notice. And my wife was noticing in me as well. It was like the anxiety of putting her down at the right time for her naps. If she misses a nap, what's going to happen? Is she going to go to sleep later? What if she, you know, so there was a lot of things that I was saying that were not in my nature. You know, thankfully, you know, I started to go to therapy and, you know, my therapist was helping me pinpoint these little things like OCD. I didn't realize I had OCD. She was like, you were looking at the monitor every five minutes, that's OCD. Checking to make sure your daughter's still asleep, that's OCD. And so, like, it really opened my eyes to like, oh, wow. Like, it's not just mental, too. It's physical things that could be blocking you and stuff like that. So those are the characteristics that I kind of saw in myself that like depression was the hardest one, I think. And I remember, you know, one of the things that it's like burned in the back of my mind, I still think about to this day is I remember it was like a week before Christmas, I think. You know, we had ran into some troubles with our daughter and like her eating when she was first. You know, she was a big, big baby. She was like nine pounds when she was born.

Emily:

Good growing. Nice work.

Chris:

She was long and she was a big baby. She had some feeding problems at the beginning. And so she lost a little bit of weight. And now that we're mentally stable, I'd say, we're able to look back and say the weight that she was losing wasn't really alarming for the size she was. All babies lose weight. It's not a big deal.

Emily:

And it's proportional to their size.

Chris:

It's proportion to their size, but our medical provider did not tell us that.

Emily:

Right.

Chris:

So they made us think that it was like this catastrophic thing that our daughter was going through. So obviously that heightens our, you know, mind state even more so now, even with what we're going through. Right? And so that just added to it. And I just remember like it was in the middle of the night, the house was decorated. I don't know how me and Lisette decorated the house, but we decorated the house and I was just sitting in the dark holding Sybil at like one o'clock in the morning. I was just crying and she was crying. And like, it was just like me talking to her and just telling like, I'm sorry, I can't do anything for you. I don't know what to do. Like, it was one of the most like saddening things as a dad or even as a parent, I guess you could say like, I just felt like I was like letting her down by not being able to like soothe her. I didn't want to hand her off to Lisette, she was getting the much needed rest that she needed during that time. And so it was just like one of those things where it was just like, it still burns in the back of my mind, but it also contributed a lot to how I saw myself as a dad. And like, you put so much pressure on yourself as a dad to like, be this heroic figure to your children. And like, you want to be the rock for the family. And now it's like, you don't need to do that, right? Like you can share that responsibility. Like I have an amazing partner in Lisette and it's like, I don't have to like brace the family on my shoulders. Like she's got shoulders too. We can do this together. And so, yeah, so it just, that night really constantly burns in the back of my brain, especially around this time, because it's like, it was hard, like just feeling so, so helpless. It was hard. It's all a product of like the postpartum depression, you know?

Dani:

So when you were going through all of that, you were starting to have these feelings of inadequacy and like you were really having obsessive thinking and just you were noticing things about yourself that were different than pre-kids and it's like, well something's different here, when did you feel comfortable saying how you were feeling and was it to Lisette was it to a provider? I mean it sounds like you had a therapist.

Chris:

It was right away.

Dani:

Okay.

Chris:

And actually Lisette-

Dani:

Way to go.

Chris:

I'm not afraid to share my feelings, like if I'm sad, I'm sad. If i'm, you know?

Dani:

Yeah.

Chris:

But it wasn't actually recognized by me first, it was Lisette who recognized.

Dani:

Oh.

Chris:

You know, she had been going to these PSI groups she was going to like two or three a day and like-

Dani:

Lisette! Does she have a punch card?

Chris:

She should have had one, like, yeah.

Dani:

Write that down.

Chris:

We should get a punch card.

Dani:

Okay.

Chris:

A free sweater after your hundredth meeting.

Dani:

We'll get back to you on that one. Hey, we're always bringing the ideas.

Chris:

But no, she, you know, she needed it. Our healthcare provider just failed us so hard. She needed an outlet. She needed her outlet. And PSI, the PSI groups gave her that outlet. And it's a great mixture of like, when you're on the bottom, you see hope by these returning members coming in and sharing their stories and like really giving hope to people who need it. And I think that's what really, that's what really drawed both of us in. She recognized the symptoms in me right away. And she's like, you need to go see, you need to join these groups. And it wasn't even like a choice. It was like, you need to do this. And so I was like, okay, you're right. I didn't argue with her. I was like, you're right. I don't feel like myself. I feel... I don't like how I am right now. So going to the groups and like, really just wishing that I knew about these groups earlier. Right? Like...

Dani:

Right.

Chris:

It sucks that like we had to suffer in silence for six months. And so when we found these groups, we started going and that's where I started to understand and kind of diagnosed myself at first. And then about, I would say a year later, I started therapy. And so that just helped me understand more of my symptoms and like helped me kind of come to terms with the trauma that I had. It's a very interesting thought process of like how childhood trauma builds into postpartum depression and how it affects you as an adult and things like that. And like, so I was very interested in it and I was very accepting of it and like being able to self-reflect, as you guys will find throughout this podcast, I like talking about myself. I'm okay with it. And so, you know, just talking to my therapist though, it just like, you know, she lets me go on tangents and it's helpful that she was a PMAD survivor as well.

Dani:

Oh, great. That's really cool.

Chris:

That's something that we specifically looked in when we were looking for therapists for both of us is like, does our therapist understand what postpartum depression is, right? I don't need a therapist to tell me that I'm just having a bad day. I want them to understand why I'm having a bad day. But yeah, so that's kind of how we started to pick up on my symptoms.

Emily:

That's awesome. It sounds like you volunteer for PSI support groups. Do you do any other volunteer work at PSI?

Chris:

I do. I also work with the mentor program. Last year, I worked with my first dad and still keep in touch with him. And now I'm helping out two dads right now. So I'm talking with two dads right now. One soon-to-be dad and then one dad who's just had their second child. So, yeah.

Dani:

So for people listening, Chris, that don't know much about the peer mentor program, what does that look like? So you're a mentor to other dads that are, sounds like there's one expectant dad and one who is probably a new dad. And what does that look like?

Chris:

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. It's for, you know, again, it's for people who maybe the group sessions, they're not really ready for that group session. They want that more one-on-one, like, you know, kind of focal, focal conversation. So we do check-ins. Via phone or text or zoom. We work it out at the beginning stages. And then we just kind of keep it up throughout the, I think it's about six or seven months we work with them. I've continued my relationship with the dad that I worked with last year. I've continued my relationship with him and just checking in and just saying, hey, hey man, how's it going? I'm glad things are working out for you. I'm still here if you ever need to talk. I mean, I really just keep my line open to them for if they ever need to get something off their chest. Sometimes it is hard for dads specifically to go to their partner and say like, hey, you know, I'm suffering right now, or I'm going through something because you're looking at them and saying like, well, you're also going through something right now. You've had the baby all day. So it's like, how can I come and complain to you when you've had so much on your plate? And that's something that I suffered with for a long time too, is, you know, putting my feelings to the back and not really being upfront and honest about how I'm feeling that day. And so this just gives dads and a dad an opportunity to do that, you know, with somebody who's gone through what they've gone through. Right? And I don't come at them with like solutions or like, I'm not going to fix their problem. I'm here as a listening vessel, you know, so please utilize my ears. You know, I have two big ones. So, you know, God gave me two big ears for a reason, to listen. Yeah. And I just tell them like, oh, if there's days where like you have questions or if you just need to vent, you know, maybe you had a crappy day, right? You just need to vent, here's my number that's kind of how it breaks down you know we try to give them a sense of hope really is what it is at the end of the day.

Dani:

Yeah, man. Peer support. Just being able to have somebody that has been there or–

Chris:

Yeah. I mean there's a lot of dads who who don't have somebody near them, like I have, you know, like my friends. I think people still feel like it's kind of weird like maybe you're sitting down in your garage, drinking a beer and you're like, you know, today postpartum depression really kicked my butt. How are you feeling? You know, like there's still that, there's still that whole like, uh, image that dads are, I think, still afraid to like push away. And it's not easy for dads to find other dads who go through postpartum depression, you know? So when you're able to connect with someone, you know, you really want to latch on and just kind of like utilize them for your needs, you know?

Emily:

If we were going to rebrand postpartum depression for people who identify as a dad, well, how would you rebrand that so that like, it would be easier, more relatable, like, you know what I'm saying? Sometimes it's in the wording, like we're going to come up with something.

Chris:

Yeah. I feel like it's like when people start talking about depression or when they say things like that or mental health, people still are very like it's like, almost taboo in a way. They're like afraid to be judged because they're having a hard time with something that theoretically society has told us shouldn't be hard but is extremely hard. You know what I mean?

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

Being a parent is one of the hardest things in the world for both mom and dad and if it's not, I think you're you're lying to yourself because it's like you feel like you get a grip and then that kid is going to switch things on you.

Emily:

Every time.

Chris:

You have to figure it all out all over again, you know?

Dani:

Enter new stage of development and all the roles change.

Chris:

It's like walking into the Thunderdome.

Emily:

And you're like, I just developed a cheat sheet.

Dani:

Walking into a Thunderdome. Oh, yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

I thought that, you know, you could just figure out the tricks, the kid tricks, and then like that applied to all kids. Spoiler alert, it doesn't. I was real mad when I figured that one out.

Chris:

One of the things that I've come to grips with is like books are not meant to take literally when you're becoming a new parent. These are suggestions that like might happen, but probably won't happen to you.

Dani:

Yeah.

Emily:

Yeah. What we need is like the mystery science theater.

Chris:

Yes.

Emily:

That goes with the book. Like we need someone to read the chapter and then be like in the bleachers, like yelling what really is happening, you know?

Chris:

That's right. It's like the two grandpas in The Muppets who just sit in the background and they just comment constantly on everything. That's what we need. Every book I tried to read, it just felt like it didn't apply to me. I think something I'd love to touch on, too, I guess, as we talk more is the representation of fathers in literature has always been very non-existent to a fact. And it's something that like we try to push that narrative out because there's a lot of involved dads, like more than people think.

Emily:

Oh, yeah.

Chris:

And the stigma of like, oh, you're just the dad or you're... Way to go, you're doing your job. You know? It's like-

Dani:

Thanks for babysitting.

Chris:

Yeah. Like that stuff. Like, oh, I had someone tell me that once and I got so angry. Like, what do you mean, babysitting? This is my kid. It's called parenting. I don't get paid for this.

Emily:

I'm going to send my wife an invoice. See how that goes.

Dani:

I was just thinking that same thing.

Chris:

Yeah. I don't know if she'll accept that invoice.

Emily:

She's going to be like– *rip*

Chris:

Yeah, exactly.

Dani:

I got an invoice for you.

Chris:

Yeah. Get the trash. But part of that is like why I took my daughter like grocery shopping every weekend with me. Like me and my daughter just go grocery shopping now. Like that's our thing.

Dani:

Oh.

Chris:

But that's part of the reason why I wanted to do it was because it's like, I remember going the first couple of times and people just being like, oh, isn't that cute? You're able to do this. And I'm like, able to do what? Be a dad? Like, I don't understand what you're-

Emily:

Push the shopping cart?

Chris:

Yeah. You mean have a kid in the cart while I'm shopping? And even going to the doctors, like speaking of like, you know, when we were going to like our medical provider at the time, like they never talked to me. Like they talked to my wife.

Dani:

Interesting.

Chris:

And then they would look at me and go, do you have any questions? And I'm like, well, no, you never once talked to me. So I stopped listening to you. If you were talking to her, talk to her. And so, yeah, it became like a sore spot almost. So it's like, so one of the things that me and Lisette do is like, we alternate like doctor's visits. We alternate dentist visits, like just so that they have to talk to both of us.

Dani:

Yeah.

Chris:

Sorry, this is a quick tangent story.

Dani:

Let's do it.

Chris:

I took my daughter to a dentist and, you know, you fill out the paperwork and they're like asking me questions and they're like, oh we'll wait for the mom to come in. And I was like, oh mom's not coming, in it's just me, and they're like, oh. And I was like, you can ask me the questions they're like okay so they're asking me like, oh when's her birthday you know This isn't rocket science guys. Right. But... they're like, oh what's your insurance and I was like, oh you should contact the mom for that.

Dani:

Yeah. Phone a friend, I'll be right back.

Chris:

Yeah. I'll be like give me a moment, And I was like, babe, what insurance do we have? And she's like, it's your insurance. Don't you know yours? I was like, oh.

Emily:

That's a cool role reversal. I like it.

Chris:

So that was a little bit of a waka waka moment where it was just like, you know, touché society. Touché society. But the more that I go in now, like when I take her to the doctors, you know, they know me. They know my wife separately. I think it's just more about being, like, present. You know, I want to be acknowledged in these visits. I don't want you to just talk to the mom when you're there. So that's why we try to make sure that I have a voice and not sit to the side. I'll be point on this one, you sit down this time. And I think a lot of dads want that, but sometimes it's hard to like... it's like playing jump rope almost. You have to like jump in. Like if you're not, you know, if you're not ready, you're not going to get in there.

Emily:

That's a great metaphor. That's really true. Yeah. Well, I think it's a really good point, though, because like first you were talking about sort of like the way that like dads are portrayed. Right? Which is sort of the like come home from work, and I would like someone to bring me my slippers and the newspaper and like, you know, like and like I'm just here. And not only those kinds of messages, but then like from the other side, you're getting like, why are you the parent that's here? That's bringing your own kid to a doctor visit. Like, why is that even a question that's being asked? Because let's face it, like you could be a two dad household for all that provider knows. And that is not their freaking business. You know, like ask the parent that's there. If they have to phone a friend and call the other parent, that's fine.

Chris:

I mean, and I'm OK with that. Like there's plenty of things like, you know, I have I grew up with ADHD and I still suffer from it. So I forget a billion things, but like I'm trying. Right? And I think that's the hard part is like it makes you feel sometimes like, why do I try then? Like if I'm going to be received or perceived this way, you mentioned the Kansas City PSI conference and Dan Siegley had a great session about like dads and like perception of dads and literature and like and just in society in general. And it really just hit home with me a lot. And I talked to him after the workshop. And I was just like, man, I felt like crying just listening to it. I felt at that time what he was saying was so representative of how I feel as a dad.

Emily:

Was that the Sunday workshop?

Chris:

Yeah, yeah.

Emily:

I believe – you heard it here first, this is breaking news– that that is going to be a two-day training.

Chris:

Oh, that's awesome.

Emily:

At the next conference.

Chris:

It should be. It was a very powerful, like, and there were a lot of dads in that group, you know, like therapists.

Emily:

Yeah. I was going to say, what was the makeup of folks who were there? Like, is that something that I could slide in on and like learn some stuff or like, is it really more for dads?

Chris:

It's for everybody. And I think that's the idea.

Emily:

Awesome.

Chris:

One of the things I took away from him as well is like, it's dads talking about and trying to voice their concerns or things is not to overshadow the mom at all. Like we still love and represent and want to help care for, you know, the moms, but the dads, it sometimes feels weird as a dad to say like, well, I need some love too. It feels like almost like, oh, now dads are infringing on postpartum depression now. Like, oh, you guys are suffering from this now? What a coincidence that, you know, and it sucks to say that, because it's like, I don't want people to think that like men are trying to claim this now and trying to like take this away. But like, to be fair, I wish it was all taken away. Right? I wish nobody went through this. Right? Like it's not about a specific group going through it. But, you know, I think that also like holds dads back from like really expressing, is like they don't want to overshadow their pain that the moms or their partners are feeling, you know?

Emily:

But I think, like, I'm glad you brought it back to that because that is like the, one of the most common things that we do to ourselves and to each other whenever we're like sharing a lived experience and someone else has like a similar lived experience is like, then we get into this competition, maybe not with the other person, but within ourselves. Like, am I allowed to feel the thing that I'm feeling, because my trauma isn't as bad as your trauma? Like, do I need to keep my stuff to myself because your stuff is worse? Or is my stuff worthy of help as well? And the answer is always the latter. It's just that we don't talk about it like that very often.

Chris:

It's hard to continue that cycle. And I think that's what's great about the support groups that we go to, that we help. And everything that PSI does is ithelps break that generational stigma of that feeling. And it's great to see so many dads and moms going to the parenthood meetings and going to the dad groups and the mom groups and all the groups that they have. It's an amazing thing to see, that people don't realize that are out there.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

We should mention the, uh, the group that we, uh, were talking about should we mention the group we were talking about in our pre-recording meeting? We had a great idea. Uh, Megan Roberts, let us know what you think.

Emily:

We play video games online and talk about feelings.

Chris:

Yeah. We gotta an in with Lisette, so I'll post that to her and say, hey, she's likem okay well you're gonna be the host you're running it.

Emily:

I will co-host that with you, 10 out of 10.

Dani:

I will be there for the conversation. I'm not a gamer but, but maybe I could become a... I don't know. I'm trying.

Emily:

Very casual like-

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

yeah

Chris:

Like, what's going on? Well, my kid didn't eat dinner tonight. Let's talk about that and how does that make you feel?

Dani:

And, you know what, sometimes it's just easier if you've got something else to do, like your attention is somewhere else to have a real conversation you know it's kind of like when you're driving in the car you can have a conversation with– I can have a conversation with my 12-year-old about...

Emily:

Yeah, get into the real stuff.

Dani:

We don't have to look at each other's face and make it weird and awkward for anybody, but I could just be focusing on the road and looking around and going, hey. We end up having really great conversations. So, I think similarly, playing some kind of video games that don't require a lot of high level thinking, but like holding space-

Emily:

So no trivial pursuit videogames?

Dani:

No.

Emily:

You know what I'm saying, right?

Dani:

No. But just having like a nice hangout and just talking about feelings. I mean, I'm here for it. Megan, get back to us. Is that an approved type of a support group? I don't know. Hey, outside of the box thinking.

Emily:

Honestly, video games was one of the things that I turned to like when things were hard, I was like, I need something that is just easy and fun. So I like dusted off the N64. Plugged that thing in, had to blow the cartridge out, like to– like, yep. You know, played some 007, still remembered all my good hiding spots, felt really good about that, like I was like, I think I'm gonna be okay, you know?

Dani:

I think we're gonna be fine.

Emily:

Yeah, I mean, I definitely utilized,

Chris:

like, you know, I work in the video game industry, so, you know, I utilized video games during that time. Which is funny because like I had– the PS5 had just come out and I actually was able to get one and it sat next to my fireplace for like almost a year. I didn't even open it up, it just sat there.

Dani:

Sad in the box.

Chris:

Yeah, and then one day Lisette's like, are you gonna open this? Like, what are you doing with this?

Dani:

Why didn't you open it?

Chris:

Uh, I just didn't have the energy, like it was like I didn't care

Emily:

And that's how you know that the symptoms you're experiencing are a problem.

Dani:

If you're a gamer and you don't- if you're uninterested in gaming, then call PSI.

Chris:

Yeah it just sat there, yeah.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

And then like, I finally opened it up and I played, you know i started playing some games and stuff like that, I felt– it started to help me like it was like a release factor almost and then like you know i play lot of mobile games and like it's not that I'm doing it to, like, shuck my responsibilities, but it's, like, help grounding me.

Emily:

Yes.

Chris:

I, for some reason, like, playing this one game was, like, 10 minutes of it, and I just felt, like, calm. Just readjust myself back into, like, normalcy in a way. Having kids is hard, man.

Dani:

I didn't think that's what it was going to feel like. Surprise.

Chris:

Yeah, like, I had a friend who told me, he was like, be prepared for the zombie phase. And I was like, I'm good. I'm good. I was like, I used to stay up all night playing video games. But it's like a difference when you're like.

Dani:

For 12 months?

Chris:

When you're tired and you have a screaming child, and you're like playing a video game. Like there's a huge difference. You can put one down. You can't put, you know. I can walk away from one. I can't walk away from the other.

Dani:

Yeah. Right.

Chris:

There is definitely a huge transition period that I think dads, we don't go- like one of the things that we always talk about in our dad groups is like when moms find out that they're pregnant, right? They have this like kind of transition into motherhood kind of almost right away, right? Like you then realize like your body is not your own anymore, right? It's like-

Dani:

More immediate change for-

Chris:

Exactly. Like everything-

Dani:

Parent carrying the child. Yeah.

Chris:

You start thinking about everything from that moment to like everything, right? I'm not a mother, so I don't- I'm assuming all of this, but-

Emily:

There is an element of a light switch.

Chris:

Yeah. And then it's like, you start to look at life differently at this point, right? Like, that's my guess. And it's like, for dads, it's like, when I was told I was going to be a father, I was like, so happy. I was like, over the moon, like, I was waiting for this moment for my whole life. And, but it doesn't sink in until you see your child, right? Until you hold your baby for the first time. Because up until that point, I was still Chris. And then as soon as my daughter was born, now I'm dad. So there's no transition of like mentality, physicality, things like that. Right? And so that's one of the things that kind of– and especially when me and my wife had our baby during the pandemic. So there was no like, go to a class, go to this, do this. There was none of it. It was all shut down. And so we were really like behind the eight ball, so to speak, when it came to that. And so, and it's not an excuse, but it's more of a thinking of like, man, like, I wish I had been able to like go to my wife's medical appointments. I couldn't, I had to sit in the garage and wait for her. I heard my daughter's heartbeat for the first time over FaceTime. I saw my daughter for the first time, her first ultrasound over FaceTime. It's a huge loss for me because I'll never experience, you know, if we decide to have another child, then yes, I'll be able to have that experience again. But if we don't, this was my chance to experience it for the first time as a new parent. And it was taken away from us. And so the expectation

Chris: of pregnancy, of childbirth, you know, my daughter was born Saturday morning at 11:

11

Chris:

on November 14th.

Emily: Three days earlier, man. 11:

11/11/11.

Chris:

She was a week late though, to be fair. She was chilling and she was like happy. But, um, you know, uh, when my daughter was born Saturday morning, me and my wife were home Sunday night. That was the level of, yeah, that was the level of care that we got from our medical provider at the time. And so, you know, again, it's just all about like how things were back then during that time frame for the pandemic, it was hard it added so much extra stress. Also, by the way, we had just bought a house which probably, in retrospect, you know maybe not do that.

Emily:

So you took on a couple of things at the same time is what you're saying?

Chris:

We moved, we did a lot of things. We moved, we bought a house, we, you knowm had a baby, you know.

Emily:

Wait, so my mind is catching up on the math. So, like, that means that your kiddo was born three years ago, that you got pregnant not knowing surprise pandemic?

Chris:

Correct.

Emily:

And then immediately pandemic.

Chris:

Correct.

Emily:

Oh, no.

Dani:

Oh.

Emily:

That's not what you want.

Chris:

Luckily this didn't take into effect, but I was in Argentina for work two weeks before the world shut down.

Dani:

Wow.

Chris:

And if I had stayed one extra day, I would not have been able to come home for months

Dani:

Chris-

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

There was a huge, like crazy, like time frame like, we didn't know. Because we didn't know

Emily:

Like, somebody get me on a plane

Chris:

Yeah, like I think we were leaving Saturday morning. And then that Sunday they closed the airports and they were like, no in and out, nothing. And I was like, oh.

Dani:

Did you just get home and go, oh my God.

Chris:

Yeah. Like, so the crazy thing about that trip was like, I had to find, cause I didn't have like a mask with me. And Lisette was like, you gotta wear a mask, wear a mask, wear a mask. And this is before everybody knew all of the crazy stuff. And I spent all like Saturday morning hunting for a mask and they had none left in the city. Luckily, one of my coworkers who lives there, he was like, oh, I have some extra ones. Here, take these. So he gave me some, but that was a crazy trip. It was a crazy time.

Emily:

She's like, don't come home with whatever germs are on that airplane. Like we're not about that life.

Chris:

Yeah. It was just a crazy time, you know, like, you know, being pregnant, buying a house, the

Dani:

pandemic, like there's just so much like... Unexpected mental health complication, right?

Chris:

There's so much that, yeah, I mean and like, I think that's where everybody started to really understand like the effects of mental health on everybody it's just like, it's a real thing, you know? Postpartum depression and everything like that is just, it's all part of this horrible circle.

Dani:

And it can happen to all parents.

Chris:

Yeah.

Emily:

absolutely

Chris:

The biggest statistic that I found out when I was going to the PSI groups is like, one in 10 dads suffer from postpartum depression, one in 10 dads, and then not even to throw into consideration, like, what if they're BIPOC? What if, you know, things like that.

Dani:

Right.

Emily:

Right. Anything else that could add a layer.

Dani:

Right.

Emily:

Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah. I mean, and that's what happens. Like you add another layer, it could be even more. It's like, it's just a very alarming thing that I'm- but I'm glad that there are companies and places like PSI that can help kind of push it to the masses and give that help that people need.

Dani:

And Chris, you're a huge part of that.

Chris:

I try to be.

Dani:

Yeah.

Chris:

I try to be.

Emily:

We're lucky to have you.

Chris:

I always tell everybody, like, PSI saved my life, saved my wife's life, saved my marriage, saved everything.

Dani:

Oh, dang.

Chris:

I owe so much to PSI that I will always be there for whatever they need me to do.

Dani:

Well, you know what I'm here for? Chris, do you think you might be ready to jump into the lightning round?

Chris:

I was a little nervous. I'm ready for it.

Emily:

Yeah, you might want to limber up a little bit.

Dani:

You look like you're kind of like loosening it up.

Chris:

Yeah, I got to stretch because I'm not always the best quick thinker.

Dani:

This doesn't go fast. It's just called the lightning round for no reason.

Emily:

How about we call it the fourth trimester round? Would that make you feel uncomfortable?

Chris:

Oh, that makes sense.

Emily:

Less pressure? All right.

Chris:

Less pressure.

Dani:

Less pressure than the third trimester. Never mind. But I digress. Okay. Chris. Emily, calm down. We're trying to do the lightning round. Okay. Chris, besides this podcast, what's your favorite podcast if you'd like to recommend one or more than one?

Chris:

I listen to a lot of video games.

Dani:

Yeah.

Chris:

But I will say one thing that I love to recommend is, so I have a good friend of mine, and he has a pretty funny podcast called Bad Advice Wednesdays.

Dani:

I like it already.

Chris:

I grew up with him. He's got a bit of a social media following now. His name is The Speech Professor. It's funny. He's very lighthearted, but he's very aware. And so it's pretty awesome to listen to. Another one that I really like to, you know, like to big up is Reginald Day. His podcast, Get At Me Dad podcast. His content on Instagram. I actually followed him on Instagram. And then it turned out that he was on the webinar that I did with Dan Sigley. And I was like, I like fanboyed out on him. I was like, dude, I follow you on Instagram. You are amazing. Like his content is hilarious. Yeah. So those two podcasts, I definitely highly recommend. Just their content is really interesting for dads, parents and stuff like that. So please, please, please check them out. And also I'm starting my own podcast that I've kind of put into the works.

Emily:

We can't wait.

Chris:

Quickly, quickly say it's called The Dad Cast.

Dani:

There we go.

Chris:

I've been writing and getting ready to record and start kind of pushing that out there to get more ears on mental health.

Dani:

How humble of you.

Emily:

Yeah.

Dani:

It's coming in third recommended.

Chris:

It is. It should be.

Dani:

Thank you for telling everybody about it.

Emily:

Okay, next question. And I'm going to preface this with, as someone who also has ADHD, sometimes I love this question and sometimes I don't. Do you prefer a book in your ear or a book in your hand or, hear me out? What if you're not into books?

Chris:

So I am into books. I haven't read- I'm sorry, I'm looking at my bookcase right now. I'm trying to see what was the last thing I read. It was a book called Labyrinth was the last book I read. And it's actually, so I'm a huge, huge, huge Tupac fan, out of the abnormally huge Tupac fan. And so this book is based off of his murder and the unfortunate murder of the Notorious B.I.G. And so it was written by the investigator who was covering the murder. And it was such an amazing book. It's an unfortunate, amazing story because, like I said, it's about two people that I really, just really enjoyed their music and their message. So that was the last book I read. But I do probably – I think I probably prefer more of audiobooks now just because it's easier to get on the go. And like I love that Lisette is like – she listens to audiobooks all the time. I think she was just listening to like Leslie Jones's biography and she was laughing her butt off. Like it was – she's like this is so funny. So yeah.

Emily:

That's the best recommendation is when someone's got something in their ears and they're laughing really loud, you're like what's happening?

Dani:

I'll have what she's having.

Chris:

Yeah. She'll be like, we'll be like laying in bed, just like, you know, getting ready to go to sleep. And she's like listening. She's like– I'm like, what's going on? Are we okay? What's happening? I don't know what's going on. I know she definitely would recommend that. That book has been hilarious.

Dani:

Chris, what do you do for a quick mental break?

Chris:

Oh, man. So one of the great things that were like recommended to me was like cold water therapy is like a huge thing. So like, even when it's cold, like going into the bathroom or the kitchen, wherever, and like just splashing water on your face and like, kind of like resets your sensory and like helps like kind of shock your system back into like a focal. It's very cold, especially around this time. So that's been a great thing. And one of the things I always recommend to dads is taking a breath of fresh air, taking a walk around the block, doing something that you like to do for yourself. It doesn't matter what it is. It could be, you know, some people like to go work out. For me, you know, I'll, you know, play video games or playing with my daughter and like hanging out with her and like, you know, listening to her and just like being amazed at like the stories that she's telling me now. So those are the things I do right now for that quick mental break.

Emily:

I dig it. What is your favorite parenting hack or most recommended?

Chris:

Most recommended. So if your child is teething, this was passed down to me. You take a cold washcloth, run it underwater and then freeze it. And you just let them go to town on it. It's amazing. They love it. That was like our biggest, probably parenting hack. I think now that my daughter is a little bit older, the thing I've been doing now, I saw this on Instagram was, you know, kids get into that snack phase where they're like, I want this, I want this. And I was like, I don't want to keep getting up and down for you to take a snack. So I actually made her a snack basket. You put a bunch of like, you know, healthy snacks into a basket and you're like, if you want a snack, go get it yourself. You're old enough. I'll open it for you. But you know, so now she'll go over to her little basket on the, uh, on the bookshelf and she'll pick her snack out. She'll go sit down, eat it. And then, you know, she's good to go.

Emily:

You're also teaching like independence, which is super cool.

Chris:

Well, and she knows that if she runs out of that one thing, she's not going to get it until next week when we refill the snack basket. So if you eat all of one thing, like, you know. The other thing we've started doing is we've been putting her snack with her dinner so that, like, we kind of make it, like, so she wants to eat a snack, but she doesn't want to eat dinner. So here's both. You can have a snack and a little bit of dinner. And it's been working really well for us so far, I would say, hopefully. I feel like it has.

Dani:

Until it doesn't.

Emily:

We'll ask Lisette- I'm kidding. We won't because you know what? You can answer that question.

Dani:

Yeah, you can answer it, Chris. Chris, what is one thing you will do to show yourself some radical love today?

Chris:

Oh, man. That's a great question. It's hard. I think today, it's just about letting yourself know, hey, you're doing a great job. A lot of our problems, I think, come from us having self-doubt or we're not doing enough or we should be doing more, whatever the case is, right? And I feel like giving yourself grace, giving myself grace, and just being present, I think is the stuff that I'll try to give myself today, give that love. One of the things my therapist had always asked me, she asked me every session if I feel like I'm a good dad. I've always had a hard time saying yes to that question. It kind of goes hand in hand with showing love to yourself is to say, yes, I am a good dad. Telling myself that I'm a good dad is showing yourself love. And everybody should tell themselves that they're a great parent because if you're out here in this minefield we call parenthood, then you're doing an amazing job. Sometimes we step on the mine. Sometimes we don't. And it's a hard thing to navigate this life we live.

Emily:

Absolutely. Okay. So aside from splashing it on your face, how do you take your water?

Chris:

That's a great question. As I've gotten older, room temperature water, that's where it's at. It's not this cold water that these youngins think is the real deal. Give me some room temperature water.

Dani:

Give me some lukewarm water.

Chris:

And a nice Hydro Flask and we're good to go.

Emily:

Yes.

Dani:

Okay.

Emily:

Team Hydro Flask.

Chris:

I'm not about the Stanley Cup. I'm not about that thing. I'm Team Hydro Flask mostly because I have like 50 of them here. I'm not getting more.

Dani:

This was not sponsored. But if Hydro Flask is interested. Hey.

Emily:

Or Stanley. I mean, you guys can fight it out.

Chris:

Let me know which one you think is better. I want to know. But yeah, I'm all about that room temperature water.

Dani:

Well, Chris, if folks would like to get a hold of you, they liked what you had to say, just had some questions, wanted to reach out, what's the best way to get a hold of

Chris:

you? Definitely. Yeah. I'm on Instagram, @CRB47, or you can hit me at The Dad Cast. I'm always up for a chat.

Dani:

You are a great conversationalist, Chris.

Chris:

I try to be. It's hard sometimes. Sometimes I'm just like, you know what? Let's just talk, see what happens, see where this goes.

Dani:

Emily, you want to take us out?

Emily:

I would. Okay. So Chris, I would like to thank you for coming and being on the pod today, but I really would like to thank you for talking a lot about the perspective of the dad with the lived experience that you've had. You are our second dad, someone who identifies as a dad on our pod. And you both brought like completely unique and different perspectives. So thank you for coming and sharing your story.

Chris:

Thank you guys. I always enjoy talking with you guys and it always makes me feel super like, yeah, let's go do some more stuff now. So thank you guys so much.

Dani:

Thanks for tuning in to the I Am One podcast. Check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about I Am One on social media and following and rating our show wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time and, well, that'll help our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening.

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Dani Giddens (she/her)

Host
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Emily Jankowski (she/her)

Co-host