On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the Executive Director of PSI, herself, Dr. Wendy Davis. We had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Wendy to hear how Perinatal Mental Health Disorders have touched her life personally and professionally, and she even indulged us by sticking around for a fun round of questions at the end of the episode. We’re so honored to close out Maternal Mental Health Month with this story, of one grateful survivor who lives and breathes the work of supporting parents and professionals every single day.
Mentioned in today's episode:
Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!
Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net
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Visit PSI's website: https://www.postpartum.net
Find free resources & info on certification, training, and other incredible programs!
Call or text 'HELP' to the PSI Helpline: 1-800-944-4773
Not feeling like yourself? Looking for some support? You never need a diagnosis to ask for help.
National Maternal Mental Health Hotline (U.S. only): 1-833-943-5746
Free and confidential Hotline for Pregnant and New Moms in English and Spanish.
Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S. only): 988
Free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.
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Podcast music:
"On The Train To Paris" by Many Moons Ago
Courtesy of Epidemic Sound...
On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with the Executive Director of PSI, herself, Dr. Wendy Davis. We had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Wendy to hear how Perinatal Mental Health Disorders have touched her life personally and professionally, and she even indulged us by sticking around for a fun round of questions at the end of the episode. We’re so honored to close out Maternal Mental Health Month with this story, of one grateful survivor who lives and breathes the work of supporting parents and professionals every single day.
Mentioned in today's episode:
Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!
Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Visit PSI's website: https://www.postpartum.net
Find free resources & info on certification, training, and other incredible programs!
Call or text 'HELP' to the PSI Helpline: 1-800-944-4773
Not feeling like yourself? Looking for some support? You never need a diagnosis to ask for help.
National Maternal Mental Health Hotline (U.S. only): 1-833-943-5746
Free and confidential Hotline for Pregnant and New Moms in English and Spanish.
Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S. only): 988
Free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Podcast music:
"On The Train To Paris" by Many Moons Ago
Courtesy of Epidemic Sound...
Welcome to the I AM ONE Podcast, where we chat with Postpartum Support International volunteers to discuss why and how exactly they're supporting the mental health of new families. I'm your host, Dani Giddens. I'm a Perinatal Mental Health-Certified advocate, a support group leader in my community and a staff member here at PSI. Hearing one person's story on a podcast changed the trajectory of my life. It was the catalyst to me opening up about my undiagnosed Postpartum Anxiety, Depression and OCD, processing my own trauma, and realizing that advocacy is my life's work. I'm joined by my co-host, Emily Jankowski. Newton.
Emily JN:It's me. I'm the co-host!
Dani:Director of PSI's Climb Out of the Darkness program. We've discovered that there is strength in processing trauma, and empowerment and sharing stories.
Emily JN:So that's what we're here to do. Our guests will take us on their journey from pregnancy or adoption, through their low onto getting help and finding themselves again, and finally how they're making a difference today. As I always say, it's the coolest club you didn't want to join because being a part of PSI means we went through something. And as a result, I've become connected to the coolest, kindest, most fun people that I would have otherwise never had the chance to meet.
Dani:One of the most important things that we've learned is that we're not alone. There's something powerful in knowing I am one of many! Whether you're already connected to the perinatal mental health world, looking for ways to support parents and families, or just want to hang out with us in your earbuds, we're so glad you tuned in.
Emily JN:And who knows, maybe we'll hear from you next!
Dani:On today's episode, we're sitting down with the Executive Director of PSI herself, Dr. Wendy Davis. We had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Wendy to hear how perinatal mental health disorders have touched her life personally and professionally, and she even indulged us by sticking around for a fun round of questions at the end of the episode. We are so honored to close out maternal mental health month with this story of one grateful survivor who lives and breathes the work of supporting parents and professionals every single day. The views thoughts and opinions expressed in the I AM ONE Podcast or the speaker's own. Tuning into this podcast is not a replacement for therapy or any other form of professional help. Our discussions cover personal stories of perinatal mood and anxiety disorders and may feel triggering to some listeners. Your number one priority is to take care of yourself. So if you are in need of help, please reach out to the PSI Helpline by calling or texting HELP to 1-800-944-4773 for help in English and in Spanish. At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help you will be well. Okay, let's get on with the podcast. Dr. Wendy Davis, welcome to the podcast studio! We are so happy to chat with you today, right smack dab in the middle of maternal mental health month. And we are also about a month and a half out from PSI's Annual Conference in Kansas City this year, in case anybody else is counting down like me. It's a very, very busy time for everyone here at PSI. So we're very honored to have a slice of your time today to chat all things perinatal mental health related, and maybe even get to some fun quickfire questions at the end, if time permits. All that to say, thank you for being here.
Wendy:Oh, thank you for having me here. i There is no other place I'd rather be right now. This is it. This is exactly how I want to spend this time today. And I'm really, really excited about this podcast in general, and about just the great stories you're telling here. So thank you.
Emily JN:Thanks for letting us do a pod, Wendy.
Dani:Thanks for saying yes.
Wendy:Thank you for saying yes. I love it. Thank you.
Dani:Well, if we are ready to jump in, Wendy, I just have to say you know quite a few people. But in case any of our listeners do not know you.
Emily JN:That would be weird.
Dani:That would be Well, it's true. I mean, you know, some people don't know when that happens. So a small percentage of the population on this earth, but would you please give us a little introduction to who you are?
Wendy:Absolutely. So I am Wendy Davis. I live in Portland, Oregon, USA. I'm the Executive Director of Postpartum Support International. I am the mom of two children. Two beautiful babies who are 25 and 28. In my mind's eye and there's still my babies, and I am married to a wonderful man. I have a beautiful cat and I have a big family. I'm the fourth child out of five and my original family and the seventh out of nine in my Star Trek family ... Oh, no, I mean seventh out of nine in my step family family.
Dani:Four minutes, and we've touched on Star Trek already.
Emily JN:Jerry Ryan, call us.
Wendy:I am the real Seven of Nine. For those, that's a character in Star Trek.
Emily JN:Oh, Dani did need that explanation.
Dani:Thank you.
Wendy:I am used to a big family. And that's put me in a kind of prepared me to be part of this big family of perinatal mental health community support. And that's also part of who I am.
Dani:Well Wendy, could you share with us, if you don't mind, what role have Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders had on your life personally?
Wendy:Well, my original career is as a psychotherapist. And I'm that person, I'm that kid who just loved stories love to listen to people. And I never really thought about what I wanted to be when I grew up. I just knew I was drawn to people who helped people with their feelings. And I was born with a lot of sensitivity and empathy. And, and I'm an introvert. So I love to listen. So it was natural for me to become a therapist. And in that therapy training, you know, I went to college and went to graduate school, I have a PhD in psychology. And in none of that, did I ever learn about perinatal mental health, or any of it postpartum depression, it was not taught, it was not mentioned, it wasn't a thing that anyone was teaching or learning about. So I went into my career without that as a specialty because it didn't exist. And I was a specialist in depression and anxiety. I worked with lots of different people, I worked with lots of parents. I actually first specialized in not just depression, and anxiety, but also creative process. That was my thing. And that's what I studied in graduate school - creativity and performance, as well as just long term mental health, and wellness. And so I became apparent after I'd been a therapist for at least 10 years, and got a crash course in postpartum depression and anxiety. And this is the thing that's so compelling, that changed my life is that despite being a specialist in depression, and anxiety, despite the fact that I had dealt with it before, myself personally, but also I, and people in the helping professions would understand this, I like working with people with depression and anxiety, panic attacks, and I like it because I know I always know that you can get better and that counseling and therapy and peer support rather than being like a downer. Or some people think like, how can you do that you're hearing all these tough stories. It's where people bloom. So it's amazing to work with people, and and bring people through that as I was brought through to be, I can be okay, you know, I can learn how to not be identified as this anxious person, or this person who's sick or will never get well. So I already had that mindset. When I had postpartum depression and anxiety. Despite all of that, I did not recognize that I was depressed. I didn't. It wasn't just that I was trying to deny it or hide it. This is what's compelling. And this is what changed my life is despite being a specialist, I didn't recognize the symptoms or symptoms of this thing I treat it all the time. I help people with. I thought I was failing. I just didn't know I was depressed. I thought these are signs of making a big mistake. These are signs of just not being able to be a parent. I'm not in the club. I'm so embarrassed that I decided to have a child and I failed. And I was so embarrassed. And the symptoms of depression and anxiety are literally that you blame yourself, you withdraw. You have no energy, you're helpless and hopeless. And so I didn't tell anybody. I mean, I didn't tell my husband. And I'm a therapist, like let's talk about it. I didn't tell him and you know what happens when you're depressed and anxious and you withdraw and don't talk about it and don't eat and don't sleep because insomnia and no appetite? You get worse. So how it's impacted my life is that as soon as I could start reading again, because that took me a while, I just turned my career around and started to teach and traine and support and develop support groups so that nobody has to suffer in that despair and fear that I did. If I didn't know, and I know the symptoms, that how hard is that for people who have no idea what's going on that this is, especially perinatal mental health distress and disorders are temporary, treatable and common, and it's just essential that people know it. So I've devoted the rest of my life to that.
Dani:What did it look like for you to seek help? How did you get better? How did you get well?
Wendy:Seeking help was one of the hardest things I've ever done. And I've done a lot of hard things. And in retrospect, it always seems, "how could that be?" It's just literally just asking for help. But in the moment, in that crisis, and I know, I've just talked to 1000s of people since then who've experienced this, it's really that you feel like you're gonna break or break them. That stigma and embarrassment is kind of generally always there. But when you're in that state of depression and anxiety, reaching out for helps feels like you're just telling everyone that you have failed. And what's happening is at that same time, I know this now, your instincts to love and care for the baby actually are there. So I think that part of what happens is that if, "I reach out for help, everyone will know this baby isn't safe." So everything I thought, by the way about that was wrong. And I did find a way to reach out. And in retrospect, I can look at the pictures, at the journal entries, at others people's words about me and see I was so bonded with this baby. I loved this baby. But when you're depressed, the symptom of depression is to have flat feelings. So there was a moment, and I remember these moments as if they were yesterday in my mind's eye, I know exactly where I was standing in my house, staring at the phone, trying to decide whether to call for help. And I remember that, and I remember thinking, "I just can't tell anybody because the reason I feel like this is that I made a mistake. And I shouldn't be a mom. And I just don't know what's going to happen if I tell." And in that moment, I realized, "Oh, wait, no, no, no, no. What I'm feeling are the results of something, not the cause of something." As soon as I turned it around, I thought that I felt the way I did because I didn't love my baby and shouldn't be a mom. So I thought that the cause was that I was broken as a mom, and that I didn't love him. And I didn't love it. And so I was thinking about ways to disappear and all that. And in that moment, I know just where I was where I went,"Wait, wait, wait. No, the cause of what I'm feeling is depression. And the symptoms are not me, that's not my identity." How did I know that? I had no one to tell me that. I had no Dani or Emily or Wendy to say that to me. I am so grateful that what part of my brain psyche memory went, "Wait, wait, you know this is what's happening." And so when that turned around, I could start to reach out. The real pragmatic answer to how did I get help is I had a relentless friend (Hi, Jane!) who said, "You're not right. You're struggling." I'm like, "How can you tell?" And she said, "You have to call someone." She was at the birth. She was such a sister and companion through all that. And she saw me going downhill and doing things like when the baby was comforted by her, I just felt sinking like, oh, he loves everyone else. And she's she said, Let me you know, let me come over. He can I can sleep with him at night and get you some rest. And I thought, "How can she do that? How can she have a baby there and not have insomnia and panic." And she just said, "You have to call someone." Well, who was going to call? So there was no resources. But Jane was relentless. Jane was going out of the country. And she said you've got to call someone before I leave. So she said, "Call a doula." A postpartum doula. I thought,"Well, that's for rich women. I don't need a doula."
Dani:It wasn't a common thing? What year was it? What year are we in?
Wendy:1994.
Dani:Okay. Oh, ok.
Wendy:Well, I live in Portland, Oregon. So it was like more common than other places. We have doulas, but I thought they were just a luxury and I you know, I didn't need a doula I needed like a personality change. I still didn't I really understand what was happening.
Dani:Your brain was telling you lies and you're believing them.
Wendy:Yeah, but Jane wouldn't let up.
Dani:Good job, Jane.
Wendy:Yeah. Thanks, Jane.
Dani:Shout out Jane.
Wendy:Then I called a bunch of doulas and I didn't call my midwife because I didn't want her to know I was failing. I didn't call my mom because it did want her to know. So I finally I just kept calling doulas and I heard their voices and I never matched and then ... I'm gonna cry again. Then I called one doula who just sounded so like ... one, she answered the phone.
Dani:Oh, that's a good start!
Wendy:Vicki. She was so straightforward. She was so matter of fact. She was so street smart. And this is what Vicki York asked me that day. No one had asked me this. This was about six weeks postpartum. I had lost all my weight. I wasn't eating or sleeping. I was crying. I was going downhill. I was breastfeeding, and taking really good care of that baby. But I didn't know it. I was going down. And so Vicki York said to me, "Yeah, I can come help you. Have you been depressed or anxious?" That was it! No one had asked me. I didn't even recognize what was happening really fully until she asked me this. And I just started to cry. And I cried for three days straight. She came over the next morning, and she sat and listened to me for hours. I found out later, that was probably the longest Vicki York ever sat still in her life. She wasn't really realized she was always moving. She told me later, she didn't know anything about postpartum depression. She just had started to hear a little about it. And so she never tried to know more than she knew. She just came and listened. And she said to me, "I think you might have postpartum depression. I'm gonna leave you these articles. And I want you to have me come back tomorrow." And I said, "Tomorrow? I don't need that kind of help." Risk factor for postpartum mood disorders is, "I don't need anybody." So even while I'm asking I'm still trying to undo the help. Right? Is that familiar? Vicki said this magic thing, which is like, "listen, you're gonna be better." Listen to this, what she said, "in three weeks, three months, you're not gonna need me here. You need me now. Have me come over. You're gonna get better faster, if you have help around the house, help with the baby and just have someone to listen to. You need me now." And just hearing that listen to what she did. Told me, not only helped me give a name to what I was going through, gave me some resources, but said, "you're gonna get better, and you're not going to need me over here. Right now you really need me." And that was the beginning. I did call a support group. There was one in town. And it was not a good fit. And that's how I started to get help. What I learned is the most important thing for me, was to let people in, and to really start to give myself some compassion and grace. What everything we pour into PSI now really has come out of all of our lived experience. But from the origin from me, knowing what people need is not fancy clinical intervention. People need whatever they need. They might need medication, therapy, group support, a doula, exercise, food They might need any of these things. But in our core self, what we need no matter what else are those things we do? What I needed was someone to say, "I got you, I see you, I see you in there, you're gonna get better, a lot of people go through this. And I have things I can do to help you. So what do you want to do today? I can fold laundry, I can hold the baby while you take a shower. Why don't you take a walk with your husband." And once I had that help, then I could start to really talk to my husband, my sister and my mom. And the important part and that I say this all the time to people who contact PSI, is to remember that all you really need to do when you're suffering is take that one step and then there's a boatload of people to help you take the rest.
Emily JN:Well, I feel motivated right now.
Dani:I think that's really important. Just the fact you know, having somebody say, how about you do this? Or what about this? You know, I can help you with this. And then all you have to do is say, "okay." Sometimes it's hard to think of that one thing on your own, but for somebody to suggest it and all you have to do is say, "okay," and just go for it, you know, then ...
Wendy:Because when you're depressed, there is no one for step. That's the issue. That your helper has to be able to say, "Here, take my hand," like the escalator in the airport. Like, "I'll get on that escalator with you all hold you until you feel steady. But it's right here. It's it's right here." So when you think about getting better, and you think of all the ways that you're failing, because you're depressed, or you might die, because you're anxious, and then the baby cries, where you can't figure out how to eat. And all your friends say stupid things. And you don't know there's a step to wellness, you just think there's more steps to being broken. You have to have someone who has faith. And one of the things my husband said, in that time, was in the middle of the night, it was crying, and I woke him up. I didn't wake him up, because I'm an overachiever, the crying woke him up. And he said, and he said, "you need two things you don't have right now. Time and confidence. And you will will have both. And I see you in there." And I didn't understand the other part about getting well is changing what I was doing in the day. And then the night. I thought I just had to be with that baby all the time. So, all the things I had done for years to be well, self care as we call it ...
Dani:Out the window, right? Because your job is to do all the things to keep this little blob alive, right? And then forget about ourselves.
Wendy:And then you get sick. So he was I was mad. I was so mad at him like, "oh, yeah, you go to yoga, and you took a walk after work. Business as usual." And I was so mad. And he said,"But why don't you do that, then?" "Well, what am I going to
do ask you to come home and 5:30 3 times a week?" "Yeah. That's what you're gonna do?"
Emily JN:Well, when you put it like that ...
Wendy:So, time and confidence. And I did not have those things at that moment. And you have to have someone outside you to have that faith in you to say, you know, "We can see you and look at how you are with that baby. You're so connected. You're really listening to him." So the person who's depressed can't see it and they couldn't.
Dani:Hard to see in the moment, you don't see it.
Emily JN:Yeah, it is the hardest thing.
Dani:To not believe that it's a character flaw. And to kind of have that ability to reframe at the conference last year, Wendy and Dr. Kat did a really cool session about ... sometimes we think, "what's wrong with me?" instead of saying, "What's going on for me, like what's happening for me right now?" And it's hard in that moment to think of that. I certainly didn't.
Wendy:Right. And that's true for most of us who have gone through it. And I think that when you think about what I learned inside, and by now helping other people is that it really is a combination of physical, hormonal changes and other stressors, social, like being isolated, not understanding that moms are supposed to help out, for example, and just trying to do it all by yourself and having society either tell you, you're doing it wrong, because you're not like the social media image or for lots of people not having the resources, you know, or encountering any kind of discrimination, racism, you know, not being able to get help. So those are social stressors. But there's also this psychological part, it is not the cause, but it's a risk factor. Are people who are used to being really self sufficient, really strong perfectionist, and criticize themselves first before they look outside. Yes, hello, people raising hands.
Emily JN:For those who are listening, raise your hand.
Dani:Raise your hand because everybody else is.
Wendy:Listen to this part, which is, if we first learn how to say what you said, Dani, don't ask, "what's wrong with me?" Ask, "what's going on for me?" And would I think like this about my best friend, my best sister, or would I say, "she's really going through something." And what happens is depression and anxiety - and this is the piece that I needed to understand. And I'm I always am trying to help other people understand. So you have all that going on kind of as a self critical person. Depression itself creates an additional lack of serotonin induced view of yourself in the world. It's not just that you're a perfectionist. Also your brain or chemistry, your hormones are seeing the world through a filter that says, "nothing's going to work." It's a symptom. It's not a fact. "Nothing's going to work. And most of all, I'm not going to work." And so that's the piece. It's it's that's what makes it hard to see. It's almost that someone has tied a weight onto your ankles, but didn't tell you. And you're like, "What is wrong with me?" Well, we got to get that weight off your ankles. We got to get the chemistry right too, so that you can see what after you take that one step. "Oh, this isn't me as a parent, this is me as a parent with depression, and anxiety. That's temporary." We lose women all the time. And I'm so grateful to have survived because we think,"this is me now, and I shouldn't be here, and the baby would be better off." Everyone needs to know Oh, no, no, this is temporary, treatable, and you're seeing the world through those crap colored glasses.
Emily JN:I like it. It's the opposite of rose colored glasses. It makes perfect sense. Yeah. What are some other misconceptions that people have? Like, set the record straight for us.
Wendy:About perinatal mental health?
Emily JN:Yes.
Wendy:Well, according to the comments on the internet that none of us should ever read, people think that ...
Dani:Unless you're on our website.
Wendy:Yes, in a safe place. Please do read the comments. Thank you, Dani.
Emily JN:Right. read our comments, not those comments. Yeah.
Wendy:I think the biggest misconception is about not understanding mental health and the effects of symptoms of mood and anxiety disorders and psychosis and trauma. And that is that people misunderstand and think that it's a choice to feel bad. People have said the darndest things to me, even when they knew I was starting a mom to mom support group here in Portland called Baby Blues Connection. And I had people say to me things like, "Oh, that's so great you're doing that. By the time I had my babies, I had waited so long, I love them so much. I didn't have time for depression." So it's almost like thinking it's a choice or a mood, an opinion. I've had people say to me, at the end of a training of nurses, somebody said, "Well, okay, I hear what you're saying and all but isn't it just really basically that she was lazy to begin with?" I had just given the training and talked about that I had just gone through this. And then on the other hand, the really lethal misconception is thinking that it doesn't get better. Honestly.
Emily JN:Right.
Wendy:And it every perinatal mood and anxiety disorder, including bipolar disorders and psychosis are temporary, and treatable. You have to have the connections, you have to have the resources, and the people around you to remind you if you hit a rough spot, or especially when you're in the beginning of it. Those are the top two misconceptions. I think the biggest misconception that parents, themselves, go through when they're pregnant or postpartum and they're having these symptoms is that they cause them themselves. As I said before, I think that's really one of the biggest
misconceptions is:it's their fault, it's not common, and it won't get better.
Emily JN:And then you attribute it to all the other things. Like because you did it to yourself, right? And this narrative this like incorrect narrative. Yeah. Like, for me, I'm thinking about the birth of my first and all of my feelings around that experience were what I attributed to how I was feeling.
Wendy:That's right.
Emily JN:Instead of maybe you're depressed, Emily. Like, it's ...
Wendy:That's right,
Emily JN:It's laughable in hindsight, because it was so clear from here to see that. But there you can't you can't see anything. Because you got you got crap glasses on.
Wendy:You think we're used to thinking, "Oh, I feel bad. Did something happen? What happened? Oh, I just gave birth. Oh, it's because I didn't like how the birth went." Now, there are lots of times that you are literally having trauma responses to birth or to previous trauma or to trauma going on right now. And that's its own thing that we need to understand is happening. But what we aren't used to thinking, and the pandemic has kind of taught us a bit, is that you know, depression, anxiety - these are real symptoms that can be helped. And you're right, just what you said, Emily is that you think, "Oh, I know it's because of birth," and then you expect it to kind of get better if you're someone who knows how to, you know, like you've gotten through a lot of things, okay?"I'll feel better soon." But with a perinatal depression, if you're not getting treatment and help, which could even just be a community of support, honestly, you get you feel worse. And that's because you never have that key remedy that key ingredient, which is the, "I am a person that was vulnerable to this, and I'm going through something temporary and treatable, and I'm part of a community of people that goes through this, and I'm gonna get better." Instead of like, "I'm so broken, everyone else seems to be happy. Everyone else seems to be able to do this, what's wrong with me? I better just lie in bed and think about all the different ways that I'm failing, and have ever failed in my life." And so we need other people. I can tell you this, that the biggest change between my first and second baby was just really allowing myself to be in a world where that other people could come in and give me a hand. And to understand that there's, as Birdie Meyer says, seasons of giving and seasons of receiving. And then as I read and listened and understood every traditional healthy society, including any other mammals, have other sisters, auntie's, or males helping the birthing person. Mommies, and babies are not left alone. So I had to learn to let that in and realize that's a strength and not a failure. And I said to myself, walking down the street one day with a stroller out loud stop in the middle of the sidewalk, "Wendy Davis, if you were meant to do everything by yourself, you would not have been born on a planet with other people." Oh, wow. Yeah, just get with it. And so the biggest change I made was letting people in and, and also working on my physical health and some prevention methods. For number two, I had the doula lined up, I had food lined up, I was ready to feel and talk and do whatever I needed. And I did not have postpartum depression, anxiety after number two. And I sat in that rocking chair, and I cried every day out of gratitude. Same rocking chair, that I cried in out of despair. And I just thought, "this is what it feels like? I'm just supposed to be, you know, exhausted and tired, and need to take breaks, but not have that sinking, horrible feeling in my chest, in my uterus in my body that I was failing?" And so that's what we do at PSI now - is just really try to spread that word that you're part of something, we're here, we got you, let us help you along so that you can find yourself again and you will.
Dani:You helped start a support group in Portland. And then how did you start getting involved with PSI?
Wendy:Well, I do like to tell the story, because it's just
Emily JN:Take the training people. That's your call to remarkable how life happens. In the middle of my postpartum recovery, and I was still on maternity leave from my counseling practice, I got a call from an old client, who said, "Hey, I know we haven't talked in years, I'm starting a group for postpartum depression, and I want it to be peer support groups and telephone support. And I've researched all over the world. And I found the other ones." There were five. And she said, "I'm gonna call it Baby Blues Connection." She was a musician. "Will you help me? Because I need a therapist who action right now! can help me assess safety, and just be a clinical advisor." And
Wendy:It is! I thought I was doing great with depression and
Emily JN:Can you tell you something? I called the Helpline I was still in the middle of it, when I knew this client. I anxiety. I did not help her with the deepest feelings, because I didn't have kids. And I wasn't planning to, by the way. And I did not know how to say these things. So here, she calls me helped her through postpartum depression without knowing what out of the blue, so to speak. And I just stared at the phone. it was. And I wish I had known. I would have been more helpful. And I said, "this is so remarkable, because well, first I really would have. of all, yes, I'll help you. And I'm going through it right now. Isn't that amazing?" She was just very spiritual person. She goes, "That doesn't surprise me at all." So I started helping her and then she moved out of state. And she asked me, "Do you know anyone who could take this on?" Well, I didn't. And I thought, "well, that's bad. I have a eight month old baby. I'm just getting out of postpartum depression. Now it would be unwise. I'm starting my practice it would be unwise for me to in 2008. My blue phone rang. Anyone who went to college in take this on." And no other therapists I knew would have done it for free as I was doing it. And so I was just gonna say no. And honestly, I was staring out the window of my house one day, and I saw a woman walking down that same street with a stroller, and walked into the community center where I had just put up bulletin board flyers back in the day, for Baby Blues Connection with the tear off tabs. And I saw her walk in there. And I thought she's gonna get to that and she's gonna pull that tab, and she's gonna call it and it's gonna say, "this number has been disconnected." And I said, "I can't do that." So I said yes. And then I was the founding Director of Baby Blues Connection, and started training other moms going through it to be those peer supporters. And when I got pregnant, at the end of the second pregnancy, I passed the the early 2000s - you know, there's those see-thru plastic torch to them. In that time, though, I continued to research those five groups in the world that were doing peer support for perinatal mental health and PSI was what's the one. I called Jane Honigman. I became a support coordinator in Oregon and Idaho. We only had about 12 support coordinators. Now PSI has over 1000 volunteers. And I started as a volunteer with PSI while I was doing Baby Blues Connection. And I learned so much about peer support, about the immediacy of that ... about how much we need that from both Baby Blues Connection and PSI and the other groups that we have collaborated with since then. So volunteer and then I was on the board for a while and then I was hired as the first Executive Eirector. And that was 2009. Until then, everything except for the office at PSI was done by all volunteers. We've grown a lot. blue phones. Oh, yeah.
Dani:Like, with a cord?
Emily JN:The kind that has to charge on a base, Dani. Geez.
Dani:Oh, okay. Sorry. A V-Tech?
Emily JN:Yep, it's the V-Tech!
Dani:I think I had a green one.
Emily JN:Nice. Yeah, you would have picked the green one. Before we go to the lightning round, let's assume the whole planet is listening right now.
Dani:Zero pressure.
Emily JN:It's maternal mental health month, this month. Next month, there's you know, paternal mental health. What should people be doing?
Wendy:First of all, drink your water and get fresh air. Okay. Secondly, raising awareness is the most important thing we can do. And think back to when it's helped you in a crisis. But also think back to the stories that the three of us are telling. It's not fancy. It's really more to say to your friend, sister, colleague, client, "how are you doing emotionally?" And give them time to answer? Ask, "is this what you expected?" And then be ready to say, "You know what, we're all talking about this. Now. Everyone knows now this is really common, really common. And people have been afraid to talk about it." So, the call to action for anybody is just make it be part of our conversation. And I do feel like the pandemic can help us with that. If we don't hide back in our holes and try to pretend that everything's just fine, fine, fine. Thank you Alanis. But to kind of really understand that the more you make emotional and mental health part of your conversation, the better is gonna be for everyone. What if everyone did that? What if everyone did that on Capitol Hill? "Hey, dude, how are you doing emotionally today? You want to talk?" Maybe we would have healthier policies and programs. Maybe we'd have less ridiculous conversations going on. And so in our own houses, don't be afraid to ask, "how are you doing emotionally? And how can I help you today?" That's the first step. Then the call to action for people who might be going through this or at risk - visit the website postpartum.net. Call or text us any time English or Spanish. And I know you give up that number all the time. So I'm going to do it again. 800-944-4773. 800-944-4PPD. Call text English and Spanish. And here's the key: you don't need to have a diagnosis to contact us. You don't need to know what's going on. Had I had that number to call, had my client who started Baby Blues Connection who I I didn't really help have that number, she would have called in the middle of the night, to say,"I'm having trouble, I'm having scary thoughts. And I don't know what this is." But people don't realize that we have thousands of volunteers and PSI. And every single one of them is trained and supported to say, "We got you. I'm here to listen." It's free, confidential, and informed, and respectful, and helps you take that next step. So the call to action is, if you're a helper, whether it's family or friends to just lean in a little bit. And to not be afraid to say, "how are we doing?" If you're a helper, let's say for example, a dad or a partner, and you think you're not allowed to have your own stuff, scratch that. Come to the website and look up for partners and dads. And realize, as y'all have mentioned, there's research, real research that says at least 1 in 10 Dads gets also depressed or anxious. After the baby comes. Don't argue with me about whether that's postpartum or not, or whether dads are allowed. Of course they are. And if you want to get involved as a volunteer, or supporter, oh, we're here for that, too. Because that is how we've grown. So all I say to people is just go to postpartum.net. Check it out. Look around, join a Climb near you. Email us. Let us know what you want to know. Follow us on social media.
Emily JN:Lightning round!
Dani:Or as we like to call it, the molasses round, because it's not very fast.
Emily JN:It's not fast.
Dani:But we can go faster. Okay. Question number one. Besides this podcast? What's your favorite podcast, if you listen to podcasts?
Wendy:I do. And my favorite podcast is Smartless. Oh, it really is. And I just enjoy listening to them. It has nothing to do with maternal mental health, maybe a little bit with paternal mental health, but I listen to it very regularly.
Dani:Great. Do you prefer a book in your hand or a book in your ear?
Emily JN:Wendy, do you read?
Dani:Do you read books, Wendy?
Wendy:I prefer a book in my hand, actually.
Dani:Reading anything especially noteworthy or, or that you would recommend? Doesn't have to be peer reviewed.
Wendy:I have a surprising answer. The book I'm reading right now. It's an amazing thing. It's called Memories from Mops. And what that is, is that my mom's name in our family is Pops. And last year on her birthday, or two years ago, we got her one of those presents where it's a story.
Dani:Like she writes memories, she takes some time to write?
Wendy:You get a story prompt every month. And in response to that prompt, you write a little essay and you send it in and at the end of the time, however long you want to take, you can turn it into a book.
Dani:Oh my goodness.
Wendy:So the book I'm reading is not public, but it's my mom's memories. One at a time she wrote it, then you add pictures. And it's a really beautiful thing. That's my book.
Dani:What is your go to for a quick mental break?
Wendy:Going outside, taking a walk!
Dani:It's nice this week in the Pacific Northwest. I just did that this morning. I heard it supposed to be 90 in Portland,
Wendy:Yeah. And however, Dani and I know because we both live though. in the Pacific Northwest - you can't wait for sunshine to take a while. Yeah, you have to have your galoshes, sometimes umbrellas and not feel like a nerd taking your walk with an umbrella. But that's the analogy. That's it. There are things that you have to do to stay well and get well. And you would prefer a sunny day. But hey, if it's raining, there's still things to do.
Dani:Just have the gear. Get out there.
Wendy:Yeah, exactly.
Dani:That's what we have to do.
Wendy:Being outside.
Dani:Yeah. What is your best parenting hack?
Wendy:Oh, easy. No, totally easy.
Dani:Okay.
Wendy:I always dressed my babies in the clothes for the next day. I mean, they're always the same clothes, pajamas. They all have the loose ... like how we've dressed through a pandemic.
Dani:And still dress at work!
Wendy:I was gonna say yes, but I didn't want to embarrass myself or anyone else.
Dani:Sorry, I said it.
Wendy:Absolutely the stress of just all that changing. They didn't like being changed. So I could still change the diaper. But the clothes were already there. And then refreshed clothes. I always put on new clothes at the end of the night and listen, as Vicki York said,"Your baby came to live with you, Wendy, not some other mom, not some other people. You, you have to be true to yourself. Otherwise, he's going to be confused. He's gonna be looking around for Wendy. So if that means you take a break, or you dress him at night, or you, whatever you do, he's looking for you." God, is that good advice? Because now that that baby, is a grown man, I'm so glad you could find me. Right? That I was me. And now a part of that is a me who? Yeah, I put this on last night. It's my sleep shirt. And it works really well on the day. So I guess it was just my own hat. But it was a great one for babies.
Dani:Does he still go to sleep in hisclothes for tomorrow?
Wendy:I'll have to ask him.
Emily JN:Yeah. Follow-up. We're going to have to do a follow-up episode.
Dani:Follow-up. Hot question! We're gonna have him on the pod. Wendy, what is one way that you'll show yourself some radical love today? Don't get scared by radical now.
Wendy:Radical is one of my favorite words. I think today is a beautiful day, and I will be going outside. And also, since you asked, give myself some respite from thinking critically about myself. I'll do that. Yeah, I'll do that for you, Dani.
Dani:Okay, be gentle with yourself today. Emily has a favorite question she likes to ask people. It's a new question. Once we started talking about the flavored water at the conference last year.
Emily JN:How do you take your water? Bubbles? No bubbles? Ice, no ice? Flavor, no flavor?
Dani:Citrus? Stright up?
Emily JN:Mint in there? I don't know. What are you doing? What
Wendy:Oh, I am a water fan. I live in Portland, Oregon, we are are you doing for your water? really fortunate to have some really tasty water. And I've grown up with that. So water tastes sweet to me. I like cold water, I like hot water. But mostly I'll, I'll drink it cold. I like ice. And I love carbonated water. So it's really interesting to me how important water is, and how bad I feel when I'm not hydrated. And especially while traveling or stressing out in general. So anyway, I think I probably now drink more carbonated water just because I love that. But yeah, cold water, flavored or not. Great question.
Emily JN:All the water. I like it. I also want to ask housekeeping questions. So like, when is the last day to register for the conference? If people are listening, and they're like,"oh, gotta do that."
Wendy:Okay, our annual PSI Conference, and Climb Out of the Darkness in 2023 is the last week of June going into the weekend of the first and second in Kansas City, Missouri. And all are welcome. The early bird deadline is May 17. So prices go up after that. If you thinking at all that you're going to come, do it before May 17. And after that, though, there's not really a deadline for registering because we have all the training materials or at the conference is a big hotel. There's plenty of room and the Climb Out of the Darkness, of course, people can sign up 10 minutes before or just show up and say, "Hi, I'm here." So there's not really a deadline for that at all. And we're excited about that.
Emily JN:You could want up and go, "I want to go to the conference," and show up as a walk in.
Wendy:Yep,you really could.
Emily JN:Wow. Okay.
Wendy:It's always such an amazing gathering, because it really does have all different sections. It's not just psychotherapy and clinical stuff. There's also a track for peer support, and community advocates and for just learning about all kinds of parts of how we come together as community so that people feel better. As like we said before, it's not just physical or mental health, or going to therapy. It's also what does it mean to fight to get peer support? How do you get involved? I'm really excited about the conference.
Dani:It's a really fun place to connect with other super passionate perinatal mental health advocates and professionals -all in one place!
Wendy:In 2024, the PSI Annual Conference will be in Washington, DC!
Dani:Oh, mark your calendar!
Emily JN:Welcome to my neighborhood! Okay, I live in Maryland, but it's close enough. Okay.
Wendy:DMV.
Emily JN:Wendy, first of all, thank you for being the kind of supervisor, the kind of leader of this organization that allows I think all of us to feel like we can be our best selves and take big risks. Because a lot of this stuff that I carry around, that I should let go of, but I'm, you know, I'll get around to that - is about who I am not or like how I'm failing and what I'm not doing. And I never feel like that here. Everything feels like possibility. And I think that culture that you've created, has allowed all of us to show up for other people who need to know that things are possible. So, thanks for coming on the podcast!
Dani:So anyway, I think our job here is done.
Wendy:Thank you so much for being part of that creative, nourishing, health-promoting community, because that is the real spirit of our recovery, and how, like you said, it ripples
Emily JN:That's how you appeared in my phone for a long out so that we want everyone to be able to just encounter one place, you know, where it feels like, "Oh, I see myself or I, I can belong here. This is a safe space to step forward." And maybe that is the element from my own very perilous, but then really nourishing recovery. Oh, my God, it's always comes back to that doesn't it? In funny because that was my original spell specialty is creativity. And I think about the creative process of providing help, and getting better all the time. So that training is also part of how I know that we're here to bloom. And also, I have to say, all my work in restaurants is really some of the best training I've had for doing this work. I just needed to say that shout out to everyone who's ever worked in a restaurant. And I think those skills are really important. And then the psychology and mental health is part. But Emily, just thank you for saying that Emily, and Dani, you are part of the spark, which is the flame on the campfire of Postpartum Support International. And I just adore you both so much. And I'm so glad for this podcast. And Dani, your beautiful voice. Also, here's the thing when you talk to many people, and you ask how to stay in touch, and they give you their website and their handle. The thing is that I don't have a website. I've never had a website, I've merged with PSI. When people asked me to introduce myself, I used to introduce Baby Blues Connection. Then, you know, I introduced my kids. Now people ask me and next thing I know, I'm just talking about PSI. And so my website is postpartum.net. I am always encouraging people to go there. My handle though, on social media. It's public. I don't have a private social media, and I'm really happy to have people friend me. Don't be shy. On Instagram, I think is WendyNDVS. I am also on Facebook, Wendy Newhouse Davis and ... time.
Dani:Yeah, if you follow Wendy on Instagram, she'll post some stories that will make you smile.
Wendy:Oh, yes. I do post some funny stories.
Dani:It's just like something that will make you smile. You know?
Wendy:I always just say don't be shy to reach out to someone, especially me. I'm inviting you. Because people can always say no. So in general, thank you both for this creative endeavor, and for helping this introverted child continue in my journey to extrovert myself and to be communicating with so many people.
Dani:We're so glad that you joined us today. Thanks so much.
Wendy:Yeah, thank you.
Dani:Thanks for tuning in to the Iowan podcast. check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode. Please consider sharing about our show and social media and following and rating our show, wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time and well that'll help with our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening!