TONY PACITTI: I AM ONE Pandemic Twin Dad and Partner of a Postpartum Psychosis Survivor (PTSD, Psychosis)

TRIGGER WARNING: Intrusive Thoughts, Mania, PTSD 

On today’s episode, we’re sitting down with Tony Pacitti - a writer and a peer support group facilitator of PSI's Dads Group. When he's not facilitating support groups - or chasing his very energetic three-year-olds around - he can be found in a book. But for today, you can also find him on a podcast! Tony shares about welcoming and caring for newborn twins while his wife was experiencing Postpartum Psychosis, and how his PTSD from this traumatic postpartum period has fueled an inner-fire to help other Dad’s like him.

Helpful Resources about Postpartum Psychosis:

• Learn about Postpartum Psychosis
• FREE Webinar: "Slaying the Monstrous Misconceptions of Postpartum Psychosis"
• Mom & Mind Episode 258: Postpartum Psychosis

Mentioned in today's episode:

• PSI Support Groups 
• Podcasts: Gom Jabbar, The Moth
• Book: American Prometheus
• Games: Ticket to Ride, Magic the Gathering, Mario Kart, Miss Pacman

Interested in sharing your story?
Fill out our podcast interest form here!

Questions about the I AM ONE Podcast?
Email Dani Giddens - dani@postpartum.net

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Visit PSI's website: https://www.postpartum.net
Find free resources & info on certification, training, and other incredible programs!

Call or text 'HELP' to the PSI Helpline: 1-800-944-4773
Not feeling like yourself? Looking for some support? You never need a diagnosis to ask for help.

National Maternal Mental Health Hotline (U.S. only): 1-833-943-5746
Free and confidential Hotline for Pregnant and New Moms in English and Spanish.

Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (U.S. only): 988
Free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.

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Podcast music:
"On The Train To Paris" by Many Moons Ago
Courtesy of Epidemic Sound...

Transcript

Dani: 0:00

Welcome to the I AM ONE Podcast, where we chat with Postpartum Support International volunteers to discuss why and how exactly they're supporting the mental health of new families. I'm your host, Dani Giddens. I'm a Perinatal Mental Health-Certified advocate, a support group leader in my community and a staff member here at PSI. Hearing one person's story on a podcast changed the trajectory of my life. It was the catalyst to me opening up about my undiagnosed postpartum anxiety, depression and OCD, processing my own trauma and realizing the advocacy is my life's work. I'm joined by my co host, Emily Jankowski Newton.

Emily JN: 0:36

It's me! I'm the co host!

Dani: 0:38

Director of PSI's Climb Out of the Darkness Program. We've discovered that there is strength in processing trauma, and empowerment and sharing stories.

Emily JN: 0:47

So that's what we're here to do. Our guests will take us on their journey from pregnancy or adoption through their low, onto getting help and finding themselves again, and finally how they're making a difference today. As I always say, it's the coolest club you didn't want to join, because being a part of PSI means we went through something. And as a result, I've become connected to the coolest, kindest, most fun people that I would have otherwise never had the chance to meet.

Dani: 1:12

One of the most important things that we've learned is that we're not alone. There's something powerful in knowing I am one of many. Whether you're already connected to the perinatal mental health world, looking for ways to support parents and families, or just want to hang out with us in your earbuds, we're so glad you tuned in.

Emily JN: 1:30

And who knows, maybe we'll hear from you next.

Dani: 1:34

On today's episode, we're sitting down with Tony Pacitti - a writer and a peer support group facilitator of PSI's Dads group. When he's not facilitating support groups, or chasing his very energetic three year olds around he can be found in a book. But for today, you can also find him in a podcast! Tony shares about welcoming and caring for newborn twins while his wife was experiencing Postpartum Psychosis, and how his PTSD from this traumatic postpartum period has fueled an inner fire to help other dads like him. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed in the I AM ONE Podcast are the speaker's own. Tuning into this podcast is not a replacement for therapy or any other form of professional help. Our discussions cover personal stories of Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders and may feel triggering to some listeners. Your number one priority is to take care of yourself. So if you are in need of help, please reach out to the PSI Helpline by calling or texting HELP to 1-800-944-4773 for help in English and in Spanish. At PSI, we want you to know you are not alone, you are not to blame, and with help, you will be well. Okay, let's get on with the podcast! Tony, welcome to the podcast studio! We are really excited because you are bringing the very first dad perspective to the I AM ONE Podcast, and you'll bring us down an entire octave. And I mean that in the best way. That's a movie reference for everybody out there. Anyway, all that to say, welcome. We're really happy that you're here!

Tony: 3:16

Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm thrilled to be here. I'm honored to be the first partner on the pod! It's a big responsibility.

Dani: 3:26

Tony, can you give us a little bit of an introduction to who you are?

Tony: 3:31

Sure. I am Tony. I live in Rhode Island with my wife and our twin sons, who are three years old.

Dani: 3:40

Oh, twin 3 year-olds!

Tony: 3:43

Yeah ... three is ...

Emily JN: 3:46

It's a diabolical age.

Tony: 3:48

It is diabolical. Ah. Oh, man. Yeah. One of them took a nice little header off the deck yesterday and there was so much blood for such a teeny tiny cut.

Dani: 4:01

Head wounds are extra bloody. T hey bleed a lot. Yeah ...

Tony: 4:05

Yeah, I forgot it's been a while since I was clumsy all day every day. That's the challenge is managing like not only at three, their little egos are coming online, but like they're really like they're testing every physical and emotional boundary. Which is hard. Because kids are not easy. Twins are not easy. But the last like six months or so this it was was like, "Oh, this is really hard." And I thought we went through some hard things as a family. But yeah, it's just challenging. They're little people now but yeah, so that's my family's story. And then yeah, I'm a technical writer. I've been working. But a fun little side project I've been getting into copy editing for board game, which I think we talked about last time possibly when we chatted. But a friend an old friend of mine has designed a game that he plans to crowdsource. It's been using like my, my nine to five work skills but in a completely different headspace. It's been fun and really cool.

Dani: 5:09

Can you tell us Tony a little bit about the role that Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders have played in your life personally,

Tony: 5:18

Our boys were born April 2020. So we had been struggling with infertility for a number of years and finally got pregnant with IVF. They were eggs, four and five of our third transfer. The pregnancy took and was going great, early enough before COVID that, I was there for everything. I was there for all the checkups. I was in the office, I saw the the first ultrasound. All like all that stuff. And then it was when things started shutting down in Rhode Island, when they started restricting. You know what? Yeah, it was early, like mid March, where I was no longer allowed to go to the regular checkups. And at that point, too, because my wife did have preeclampsia. She was going a couple times a week. And like it was one of those things where it was a bummer. But I hadn't, I hadn't missed those big milestones. I was able to be there, like I said, for first ultrasounds and getting to see them kind of wiggle around and stuff. They were born in April, they were great. They were just a little small. So they they ended up being in the NICU for two weeks. But thankfully, nothing besides the fact that they were like, too small to send home. Lorenzo was 5lb3oz, and the Max was 3lb13oz. And then, you know, they drop a little bit of weight, too. So but they both ...

Dani: 6:35

Did they both come home at the same time? Or was it?

Tony: 6:38

No, they were discharged a few days apart.

Dani: 6:41

Okay.

Emily JN: 6:42

How was that? Being discharged separately?

Tony: 6:46

It was kind of nice. It kind of let us acclimate a little slower. And then so like we're the PMADs came in is after. So they were born. And then a week later, you know, we got discharged. They're born on Friday, we went home. I think the thing was Monday morning. And my wife had preeclampsia. So her legs were like, enormous. Every other nurse was like, "Oh my God," and or, "that it'll get better." So we got home and like, yeah, it didn't get better. She had some complications. She like started feeling lightheaded was seeing spot so her OB was like, Okay, it's probably best if you come in. So just go to the ER at the obstetrics hospital, they'll check you out. Sure, it's gonna be fine. But you know better that you come in. So that was a week after the boys were born. I bring him back to the hospital. And she's like, look, "I'm here because I have to be the boys are in the NICU. Like nobody has slept. Why don't you just like just go home, you know, go get some rest. Give our folks an update. I'll call you when I get to a room." And she called me that night. She sounds a little irritable. You know, it was a little voice. It started as a little voice in the back of my head is like, "ah, you know, she's probably just exhausted. Because obviously she would be but like, you know, remember to do like a wellness check tomorrow when you see her just like see how she's feeling." And then so I went to the hospital. The next day I checked in the boys went to see her and she was kind of like grumpy and paranoid in a way that didn't seem normal. She was like, "no one's listening to me." And then she was saying things like, "are we on the same page? Are you on the same page?" And she kept repeating things a lot. And it wasn't even just like repeating herself because she didn't think she was being heard. Like she was repeating herself a lot. She was almost getting stuck in in loops.

Emily JN: 8:43

Okay.

Tony: 8:44

But while we were in the hospital, that second time after she was readmitted for the physical stuff with preeclampsia. We went up to the NICU. I don't remember who it was that night or yeah, it was that night. Must have been that night. So the day after I brought her back to the hospital. And she spent, like I said, had been a week and she'd spent maybe like four hours with the boys - four or five hours total. Because she physically, it was so hard for her to like move out of her bed of hospital and then once we got home, getting her in and out of the car was just such a procedure and she just physically couldn't do it. So she was so excited. We went up. We spent like two hours in the NICU and we were finally getting that time we had like spent nine months waiting for... she does skin-to-skin ...

Emily JN: 9:30

And longer than that because you had infertility issues. So really it was longer than that that you had been waiting for like for these moments, right?

Dani: 9:39

Yeah.

Tony: 9:41

So yeah, she was you know, getting into that skin to skin she tried nursing Max for the first time and then after a couple hours she was like,"Okay, I'm starting to get tired so let's you know let's head back and I can turn in," and Max wasn't taken from her she she handed max to the nurse and then as soon As he was out of her hands, her face physically changed. And suddenly, she was talking nonsense. You know, she was talking about friends and like, she was talking about us stuff, but telling it to the nerd and like she just, she just wasn't making sense. And then she she was getting kind of short of breath or heart was going. So they called in some other doctors and then that was the kind of like inciting moment and for the next 36 hours, like it all built up to a full blown psychotic episode, where she, you know, the next morning, she suddenly, she thought she was still pregnant. She was, pantomiming, having the boys. She was pantomiming being her own doula. And then by later that afternoon, I had gone to the back to the NICU. And I had only been there like, maybe 10 minutes, and then someone called and she's like, "something's happening with your wife, you need to come back here. She's in distress." And I got out of the elevator and I just heard her screaming. It was like a, just an awful stream of consciousness where like every disappointment or regret that I'd known her to have, like all these disconnected memories, were just kind of coming out and nobody

Dani: 11:13

Out of her mouth?

Tony: 11:13

Yeah, yeah, she was just like, screaming about relationships that she felt bad about, and, you know, things that didn't go the way she'd wanted her voice and what she was saying, and it just it felt violent. It was so intense. And nobody really knew what to do. They finally kind of were able to sedate her. And we were at the the maternity hospital. And Rhode Island Hospital is right down the street. So they're like, "we've done everything we can here we need to send her to an a hospital for adult." They wanted to check for like any there's physically something going on in her head, you know, they want to check for like encephalitis. So she got a spinal tap ...

Emily JN: 11:49

Or like, an allergic reaction to some kind of medication causing exactly inflammation. Yeah, I mean, it could have been anything.

Tony: 11:58

One of our friends was like, oh, you know, like, "I know, she's been on a catheter and my grandma had a UTI and it made her kind of kind of lose your mind for a couple of days. You should ask them." And I asked them and they're like,"Well, she's not 70. But yeah, we'll check." I guess it's something that happens with older people who, but anyway, they weren't at dismissive, but they were very, like, you know..

Dani: 12:19

Thank your friend for that suggestion.

Tony: 12:21

Yeah. "Okay, well tell WebMD will look into it."

Emily JN: 12:26

How long did it take from when they took her there until you had answers, you had like terminology, you had a sense of, what was actually happening?

Tony: 12:37

It was kind of an evolving situation. Like at that point. They're like, "Yeah, this could very well be postpartum psychosis." Depending on who I was talking to, there was debate as to whether or not that timeline matched up. Some people were like, "a week after sounds about right." Some people were like, "it might be too early to tell. But let's keep an eye on it." No one was ever dismissive. Again, it's it's the COVID of it all. I'm wondering, in hindsight, the rules were changing every day at the hospital. And I'm not saying anyone was brushing us off or passing the buck. But I do wonder if there's a sense of like, let's just get her home. It became clear there's there's something to watch out for. So yeah, she was at the Rhode Island Hospital. She was there for a couple of days. Was discharged. She seemed fine. She was given some medication. We were just told this could be this sleep is very important. But we had twins that were ...

Dani: 13:26

Hey, did you get the memo? We have like two brand new babies. And they don't really know day and night.

Tony: 13:34

Yeah. So we did get some help initially, and again, they were at the NICU. Still, while all this was happening, so they were well taken care of. So she was able to sleep. Fast forward to a month later, she was doing pretty well for a number of weeks. And then beginning of May, things took a turn where she became very, she kind of like, retreated into herself became very depressed, sleep just wasn't happening. And I tried as best I could, with the limited help we were willing to ask for, again, given what was happening in the world. You know, trying to get some help with with feedings because we were feeding them every three hours through the night. But yeah, she became deeply depressed, you know, I'd have to like, drag her out of bed and really, like, beg her to help just because I couldn't. And if there's one of them, I probably would have tried to do a lot more and probably done a lot of undue harm to myself trying to keep everything afloat. Right. But yeah, eventually, you know, I knew she was keeping things from me. I could tell that like there was more going on that she was telling me and ...

Dani: 14:39

Like she wasn't being forthcoming with how she was feeling, what she was thinking?

Tony: 14:43

Yeah. So eventually, I was able to get her to tell me that she had kind of come to the conclusion on her own, that she didn't want to be a mom that she didn't love our kids and the way she put it was, "I think you'd all be better off if I wasn't here. If I was gone." And like I was like, "Do you mean, like, you don't want to be married anymore, you just want some space?" And she's like, "I've been thinking about hurting myself." So we got her on the phone with her therapist. And once that was finally said out loud, and again, it was just weeks of, you know, not just like begging to, be involved with the kids. And I was trying my best to be compassionate. But it's so hard. My own exhaustion, and just the demand of the twins kind of, compounded with it. And there's like, you know, there was resentment on my end, and I feel so guilty about that. But I didn't know. And then when once she finally put it to words, everything happened quickly. Her she talked to her therapist. I think she gave the phone to me. And her therapist was like, "she needs inpatient treatment. So you gotta get someone to the house to watch the kids. You gotta put her in the car. There's a a great facility in Providence." So, it was very close. So I brought her there. She was there for two weeks. I wasn't allowed to visit. I could talk to her when she wanted to, but she didn't really want to. She was discharged. Again, she kind of kept things to herself. She said what she thought people wanted to hear so she could come home. And then a couple weeks later, I had to bring her back. And at that point we all knew. You know, she's being very cagey. She's talking around the issue. So at that point, I'm not saying the care was better, but I think they had a better handle of what was happening. So yeah, I mean, all said and done, she was in an inpatient treatment for almost 40 days. And halfway through that second stint, it was clear that meds weren't working. So she ended up getting ECT, which is Electro conductive therapy, and that kind of like punched through the dam, as it were. And after a couple of treatments, she started to sound like herself. And yeah, at that point, we're like, late into the summer after the boys were born. And the biggest side effect was that she she had no, she has no memory, really, from the beginning of the year up through October. So she doesn't remember having the kids. But she doesn't remember what her experience with the psychosis was either.

Dani: 17:06

You remember it all. And that's pretty heavy.

Tony: 17:10

Yeah, it's kind of like living in a haunted house in a lot of ways. You know what I mean, that memories there. I remember after she came home, after the second time, you know, and she was herself again, we put the kids down, and one of them was crying. So I went in just to like, sit and rock him. And in the other room, her and my mom are just like having dinner and just like talking and laughing. And I had gone from I had gone from being so like, just hopeless and scared, and thinking, like, "the person I married, and the mother that I knew she wanted to be is, this person is not coming back. You know, even if she comes home, our lives are gonna be radically different." And then suddenly, she came back herself, and it was like this whiplash effect where like, I went from her not wanting to be a mom anymore to her not remembering what had happened. And, just like acting normally, because she ...

Dani: 18:03

Twilight Zone, kind of like, "what is happening?" Yeah, I was just gonna ask you about how it has gone

Tony: 18:05

Yeah, yeah. So I just remember that feeling of being in the nursery with that he was Max and just holding him and I was just shaking, I just didn't know how to feel. Having gone from being so scared and hopeless to, not having the reason to be any more. It was reality change so much. But anyway, like, the haunted house thing is like, you know, they're still it's been three years. And, you know, in the morning, if you know, if I get up first, and like, I get the boys ready to go and I go in be like, "hey, you know, is it happening again?" There's some of you that I just haven't been able to shake, and, and she's starting to work with her doctor to dial back on some of the anti-psychotics that she's been on for the whole time. So vigilance is like super high. And again, it's a guilt thing where everything indicates like, I know, like, there have been moments where she's like, "I don't know, I don't feel right. I'm gonna call my therapist." You know, we tried, she tried to dial back on her meds, like a processing this on your side. I mean, it not just the part where year and a half ago. And she's like, "No, no, this is, this is too soon. I'm gonna call our doctor, we're gonna bump it back up." So that communication is back. She's not holding things back anymore. But it feels like I don't trust her. And finally, my therapist was like, Are you up of PTSD about this? you're holding things together while you're, you know, wife is getting the help that she deserves, but you have needed and we all need support, right? So it sounds like you you regularly see a therapist ...? Yeah. Having three year olds kind of put me back. I know what kind of dad I want to be and I wasn't paying that. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's the same therapist I had all through that period when when Sondra was in the hospital and after that. It is hard. I asked her the other day, do you feel defined by what you went through? And she's like, "No, not at all." And she asked if I was and I was like, "Yeah, I'm still like scared every day." It's, it's an odd thing, I think I am able to see, you know, as weird as it sounds like the silver linings that came from it. I know that I'm a more engaged and hands-on father than even I had intended to be. I was wholly responsible for their day-to-day needs in a way that, you know, it was like halfway through her inpatient treatment, where I kind of had a talk with myself. And I was like, "You need to start thinking like, you're a single parent," because I was waiting to make little decisions, but they're still decisions. And I'm like, you know, my mom was, you know, staying with us through all this to help. We had a few friends coming in to help with feedings, I was like, you can't, I've asked enough of these people and like, not even, you know, you have help lean on it. But like I was, I was their parent. And these people were not, and decisions have to be made. And it was just such a bizarre headspace to be in to have her because she was still around. She was a presence in our life, even if she was absent. But I didn't know how to reconcile that with what needed to, you know, in terms of like, just managing two very needy, but healthy infants. It was it was tricky. But you know, like, my dad came down to visit once. He was like, "I don't know how you do it, man." And I was like,"What choice? You know?"

Dani: 21:37

I don't sit around going,"Gosh, I wonder if there's something I'd rather be doing right now." Because you literally don't have time for that. Right? I mean, it's like, feed, change diapers, try to sleep. Repeat. Got to eat somewhere in there.

Tony: 21:53

Well, yeah. I think so much of spiraling out of control that I became obsessed with, like no one else was allowed to make formula. No one else was, like, I had a little notebook that like I had all their control of their feedings. Yeah. And one of our friends would come over on nights where I was told - I was not asked if I wanted a night off - I was told,"You know, you're not going to ask for the help. And we're telling you to, go upstairs and just, tag out for the night." Once I was out of earshot, they, you know, my friend would ask my mom, "Has he just stared at the book all day?" Because I would just like, I would just like - Beautiful Mind - just looking at like, you know, formula ouncages and who pooped when and who slept for how long? And just trying to like, control it? Tough, you know?

Dani: 22:44

How was that going from being in control of everything to now just being 50%.

Tony: 22:51

So like I said earlier, she forgot. She had no memory of everything. So she continued ...

Dani: 22:58

Until that point? Until the point that she came home?

Tony: 23:02

She forgot everything. So she came home and like end of July. She doesn't remember from the boys being born at the beginning of April. And memories don't start for her really until October of that year. Oh, so even after she was discharged, she continued to get regular treatments. And when I would pick her up, I would kind of have to give her a crash course every time. If the beginning when the treatment started, it was like, she was like, "what are their names again?" Like that level. And then going forward, it was more like,"Okay, this is where we're at Ren's sleeping seven hours, Max is sleeping five." I would have to update her on what they were doing. So when she came home, the easiest thing was really for her just to be reminded, and for me to sort of guide her. Because in my obsession with control, my sole purpose was they both have to be sleeping through most of if not all, night, by the time she comes home. If I can do nothing else that she can just sleep. And I got us there. I got them there. So then we just kind of like reminded her and coaching her through. But once her memory started to stick again, and then as they were developing, you know, "I was very conscious of the fact that I'm like, "I'm calling the shots." And the plan was never for any one of us to be like,"I'm in charge of the kids and I do all the kids stuff." And like, you know, I didn't want to be that dad who just like helps when I'm asked to. And I sort of felt like suddenly like, "I make all the rules."

Dani: 24:32

Like you're babysitting. Isn't that wild?

Tony: 24:34

Yeah, exactly. Especially dealing with infertility. We had a friend who's like, "I gotta babysit the kids this weekend." And we were like, "We don't want to hang out with this couple anymore." Like, apprecite what you have! Yeah. So yeah, when she came home, it was a lot of me. It was a lot of hand holding on my part just beause she, she needed me to because she couldn't remember the routines. And then like I said once once things started to stick in October, it wasn't much longer before we started putting our toe in with baby food and started experimenting with solid. So, that was really the first milestone where they started taking real food where I stepped back and I was like,"Okay." We had a conversation about it. I said, "I've done all this stuff up to this point. Now we're adding these new things in and I want this to be more of a collaboration than it has been just because that's the type of parenting we had always wanted. That was always the plan." So going forward from there as we hit new milestones. Again, it sounds it sounds so controlling to say I let her but like, I stepped back purposely so that she could have the input and the agency over being a mother that like, up until that point she either couldn't have had or wasn't able to for whatever reason. So yeah, it took a little while. But we got back to what we'd always hoped to be that partnership approach to parenting, but it took some time.

Dani: 26:01

Took some time. Yeah. When did it feel like "okay, I think we're doing this. It feels like what we wanted?"

Tony: 26:10

It was probably around the time they were one. So about a year in when suddenly it's like,"oh, we can start like ... COVID can start to be the thing we're most afraid of, like everybody else." When that was my biggest fear, that's when I realized, "okay, I think I think Sondra is okay, now."

Dani: 26:30

Yeah, I think things are looking up because that whole time COVID had been raging on.

Tony: 26:36

She forgot there was a plague happening. So she'd go to grocery store. And she's like,"the woman in front of me seemed really irritated that I," and I was like, "What do you mean, she was irritated?" She's like, "she kept looking at me like I was too close." And I was like ...

Emily JN: 26:51

God, how close were you?

Dani: 26:54

Could she feel your breath on her neck or something?

Tony: 26:57

I think it was that situation where like, she was trying to look at something on the checkout rack and just like kind of leaned over the person's shoulder. And there's there a whole new, like there's a whole new social construct with going to the grocery store. Yeah, we'll have to review that!

Emily JN: 27:13

You know, that's a really good point. I mean, she essentially had this period of time where she was not fully participating in society. And all of a sudden, she comes back, and the rules have all changed. You know, from her perspective, if she essentially does not remember the birth and then coming home and her being so sick, then your household changed, too. And the whole time, you're dealing with this, very complex, like mixture of emotions. I would have felt resentful that I was stuck holding the bag, which, by the way, isn't a bad thing. Right. Like that would be I think that would be a really normal reaction.

Tony: 28:01

Yeah. And, you know, I think it took me a while to sort of, to reckon that that both things can be true that I could acknowledge that what was happening to her was this unexpected, horrifying condition. But at the same time, just yeah, the burden of responsibility.

Dani: 28:20

Also, this really sucks for me. Good for you to acknowledge that they both can be true, because sometimes we beat ourselves up about that, right?

Tony: 28:25

Oh, totally. So between her stays at the inpatient facility, she was doing like a, like an outpatient program. And sometimes when we get on home,

Dani: 28:38

Like she was on a computer Zooming into a support group?

Tony: 28:40

A little bit of both. Yeah, sometimes she would call Or? in from home, sometimes she would go in, and they really stressed the importance of her taking one of the boys with her, which is really hard for me. But there were couples of sessions. And you know, she would say things like, you know, "I just, I don't want to be a mom." And the counselor was like, "that's normal. And a lot of women, you know, feel that and like, you know, if you don't want to be a mom, that's fine." And I think because of the distance, because no one was in the room with her. It was all remote. I was like, you know, I found myself saying things like, you know, "Yeah, it's if you don't want to be a mom, that's fine. But there's something wrong. And we need to fix that first before you can make that decision." I think before everybody finally realized how far gone she was, that was a struggle I was having with with not all but with certain health care providers is I didn't get the impression that they fully appreciated what was happening, like on a boots on the ground level, like I did. You know, she was at one of those outpatient sessions with one of our sons that day, she was admitted the second time. So they called me and they're like,"You gotta come get your son. An ambulance is going to come because we were not going to ask you to take her again." And we had that conversation. She's just sitting there. She's like,"What if this is me now? What if I don't want to be a mom?" And I said, "Once you're better, if it's still how you feel like I love you, if that's what you want, when you're better, we'll figure it out." And that was the rock bottom for me. "As long as you're okay, I'm not going to keep you here, I'm not going to, trap you in this house with somebody you don't want. But I don't think you're well right now I don't think you're yourself. And I think you just, I just want you better and I want you safe. And then you do whatever you want." You know ...

Dani: 30:29

That must have been so hard.

Emily JN: 30:31

I think so many parents have a picture in their mind of what having kids and bringing them home is going to look like. And then they have to reconcile the reality, which is inevitably different than what we see on TV, which is, you know, it's always like a parent taking care of a kid for a minute. And then they take the baby offset. And like, do the rest of the scene where they can have like, they can say whole sentences to each other and stuff, right? Like

Dani: 31:01

Oh, and have their thoughts to themselves.

Emily JN: 31:04

There's this reconciling that I think we all have to do between the expectations, and then the reality, which are inevitably different. And so I think, I think maybe, I'm just I'm trying to like empathize, because I do a lot with how she felt like I was like, "maybe this is just not for me." I relate to that very much. But I think the overwhelming evidence was in opposition of that sentiment. You two worked very hard to get pregnant, to stay pregnant. And then to not let Preeclampsia get in the way of a healthy delivery. Right? The evidence was already to the contrary of that. But then, oh, I find that so relatable. I'm sure was like the part that wasn't loud enough in her own narrative of what was happening at the time. And you're there being able to be objective, at least to a certain point. I mean, you had a lot going on that made you maybe a little less objective, right, like for sure, but you're looking at the whole situation, and you're like I can, like I remember, "I remember all of the effort and all that like and all of the heartbreak that that process had. And that's what it took to get us here. And I know that that how you feel is not your core you." But then you had to say to her, "If it is basically I'll let you go."

Tony: 32:36

Yeah. It's, it's funny. You mentioned our expectations from TV, cuz that was during the day that I realized. So I said like after she that first initial episode, we had a few

good weeks. And our routine was: 32:49

we would wake up, we feed the boys and we're just like binging Parks and Rec every morning.

Emily JN: 32:58

Excellent.

Tony: 32:59

So we get to the episode where Leslie and Ben find out. They're having triplets and Ben being an accounting nerd, runs the numbers on what it'll cost him triplets. And we're feeding our babies and I look over to be like, Oh, I can't it's gonna be us. And like, she's just got that like Jack Nicholson in The Shining, 1,000 yard stare. And I was like, "It's not going to be that." I thought she was just like, I mean - she was reacting to what what she was seeing, but I was like, "this is this seems like an overreaction." That was the first bad day that led her to, you know, eventually being in the inpatient treatment. And, don't know that I could go back to parks and rec. I think it's I think it's forever been sullied. But certainly did not expect the residents of Pawnee, Indiana to to be the you know, the first domino.

Dani: 33:52

Yeah, it was supposed to be the mood lifter, right?

Tony: 33:54

Yeah, yeah. It was just such a it was just such a surreal moment.

Dani: 33:58

So throughout this entire process, did you know about PSI, did you attend a dad's group? How did you become connected with PSI?

Tony: 34:09

Yeah, so I did not attend a dad's group. The options were pretty limited still at that point. They certainly had one. They may have had two, but they also had the call-in number. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Emily JN: 34:26

There was like, there was a Dad Chat.

Tony: 34:28

Yeah. And they still do that. And I only I only called in once. And you know, like, it starts the facilitator sort of, you know, tees everything up and then ask everybody to introduce themselves. And the introduction just went on and on and on. And then he's like, this is the most we've most dads we've ever had call into a single call. So, four dudes got to talk. And I mean, it was nice to listen, but I was sort of like, telling myself again, it was like the control thing. Like, "You don't have time. You gotta make sure things are taken care of. You gotta be Make sure you're staying on top of Sondra and like in her care," because I couldn't see her. But the Facebook group was really where I kind of first started to find some bit of an outlet, the first iteration of the PSI Facebook group for dads. So that was easier to kind of just do after putting the boys down and just like melting into the couch and not wanting to like physically speak to anybody. You know, I could just kind of like bang it out with my thumbs. And, and and it was it was very supportive. It was a small group. But yeah, that's sort of where I got started.

Dani: 35:29

Tony, you found the psi dad's Facebook group, because that was that worked better for you than phoning into a support group. You know, it sounds like you really had to be thinking what's the best use of my time? Like, I need some extra support. But literally, I've got this teeny tiny little unpredictable window. So you found the Facebook group? And what are you doing now to support dads with PSI?

Tony: 36:01

After I found the Facebook group, the guy who had been running, it was stepping down and the page was going to close, it wasn't getting a lot of use. You know, I don't know quite how have to fixed that. But that was when I reached out to PSI. And I said, "If this Facebook group is going to go away, or if you need someone else to run it, like, I'll be the guy to run it. I think it's too important. You know, I think even if it's not getting a lot of like regular interactions, like I just think it needs to be there."

Emily JN: 36:27

Yeah.

Tony: 36:28

And then I also started the conversation about becoming a peer group facilitator as well, knowing that, you know, when I was looking for that help, there weren't a lot of options. And they were like,"Yes! We we know that we need more of this," which is great. And now I'm one of four facilitators. So every Friday, there's a Dads Group, which is great. So yeah, so I've been doing that, I think, almost a year now. It's almost been a year that I've been running the second Friday. Dads group.

Dani: 36:59

Happy early one year anniversary!

Tony: 37:02

Oh, thank you so much.

Dani: 37:03

Yeah, yeah. And how's that been?

Tony: 37:06

It's really, it's really hard, I think. But it's, it's very rewarding. You know, I think every other month, I kind of like have the conversation with Sondra before I'm like, "It takes a toll emotionally, and I don't know if I can keep doing it." And then like, that night, I'll have like, just hearing the hearing these guys. It's so hard, I think especially because most of them are around my age. And I think we're still trying to shake off some bad habits and some bad social cues about how a dad how a guy is supposed to act, and to just be there for a couple hours once a month and hear these dudes who are like, I didn't grow up talking about my feelings. I don't know what that looks like. But I'm struggling and it sucks. And I need help. I want to be better for myself and my partner and my kids. You know, guys who have never met each other and some who have because it's it's so great to see folks coming in, like repeat visitors. But just for them to treat each other with such empathy and kindness and to just be open to baring themselves for strangers. It's just, it feels like we're doing the right thing. Not just for ourselves and our families now, but like, you know, especially our sons won't have baggage. You know, and I love my dad, my dad's a great guy, but he was not plugged in. He was not good about his feelings. And yeah, so every time I'm like, "I think it's too emotionally tolling for for me," like these guys just fill me back up. And I'm learning stuff about my own situation just by listening to them. There was one month where like one dude showed up but it was a guy who came every month and the previous month have been a really hard conversation because of a story so I'm brought to us. I was like,"You're here. I'll give you 15 minutes I'm not gonna make you sit around for the whole hour and a half because just the two of us," and we talked to her the whole time. He's like, "Last month was hard. Can we talk about it please?" And like you know, you make these like these fleeting connections. I'm just I'm just so glad that I'm able to help you know the organization provide as much of an outlet for them as we can. So yeah, I'm happy to be one of the four guys running the weekly calls now!

Dani: 39:19

Oh! Now they're every Friday?

Tony: 39:22

Every Friday. Yeah, we've got we've got a dad - except for the weird months that have five Fridays.

Dani: 39:29

Then it's only four. During those months, it's still only four.

Emily JN: 39:33

I got a dad. He really likes to talk about his feelings. I say that seriously. My husband is actually way more in touch with his feelings than I am.

Dani: 39:43

This is why I did Emily's on a podcast talking about feelings.

Tony: 39:49

Yeah, and Sondra, too - she's been very like supportive and she's like, "You remember things I don't and this is scary and too important. So like to not talk about it constantly." Yeah, I wrote I wrote an article that was published in a local magazine about her experience, maybe earlier than I should have been writing about it. But random people in Rhode Island reaching out on social media who are like, "Yeah, I saw that and thank you." And, you know, moms who had gone through something similar or like, or just folks whose family or who like knew, knew a friend who did and like nobody talks about it, because it's scary? It's embarrassing? I don't know. Like, I don't know why Postpartum Psychosis got a sentence in the baby books I read, and that sentence was,"just call 911." I need more than that. I think instead of talking about it, we talk through it, you know,

Emily JN: 40:41

Yeah, being able to say that, I felt three conflicting, totally incongruent emotions at the same time. And they were all valid. I feel like I want to give you homework and ask you to write a book.

Dani: 41:00

You are a writer!

Emily JN: 41:01

Or like write it as a journal entry. I've seen a lot of moms do that as part of their process, to write the whole thing start to finish. There there are so many, parts that remind you back of, of something that happened earlier in the linear story. It's just proof that time is not linear and that the 10th doctor was right.

Dani: 41:29

Is writing therapeutic? You are writer. Is writing therapeutic for you, for your mental health? Maintenance? Can I ask a personal question about what you absolutely do? Do you write about this experience? Becoming a dad?

Tony: 41:44

Yes, to all the above all!

Dani: 41:46

Ah, all the things.

Tony: 41:47

In the moment, I was journaling because it was the only way to get the things I couldn't say out loud, or especially to her, out of my head. I think I have a page in one journal that says, "a complete list of today's irrational grievances." And it's like, you know, things I just hated about that day. And there were things that would have been so inappropriate and unfair to say out loud, but I just had to get them out. You know, it's, it's far too soon to say if anything's gonna come of it. But, Emily, to your point, I'm ahead of you on my homework assignment. I have been the last few months I've been really like sitting down and putting thoughts to paper. And, you know, there's like a spoken word event here in Providence, where I read up a bit about what I've been working on. I just did

Dani: 42:36

The Moth?

Tony: 42:37

Yeah, for Postpartum Psychosis Awareness Day - the event with The Moth. It's helping me to work through it for sure. And it's something I've tried, there are a number of false starts, but it was just it was too soon. You know, it's too raw. I think I'm at a place now where I can, yeah, and you know, right through it. Yeah. I've read a couple of memoirs by women who went through it. And that moth event to like their things Sondra doesn't remember, and the women who have showed the courage to share their experience. The way it's helped me is it's illuminated what may have been going on in Sandra's headspace and helped me to better understand something that I was so intimately involved with, but there was so much distance whether it was physically because she wasn't around. She wasn't telling me everything. So I just I've appreciated every every accounting I've been able to find of people who have gone through this and I'm so thankful that that others are brave enough to share, not just for people who went through it or watched a loved one go through it, you know, it's, it's important.

Dani: 43:36

Yeah. Just like it's important for you to hear from the person who experienced, other accounts from people who experienced Postpartum Psychosis. It's so important to hear your story of being the partner, because we don't hear so much of that. So, hello, enter a podcast. That's why we're doing this.

Emily JN: 44:00

I feel like it's giving me new understanding of my husband's experience to hear your perspective on needing to be the in charge guy.

Dani: 44:14

We're so glad that you came on here to share your story, Tony, and let us pick your brain.

Tony: 44:18

Thank you so much. I'm really grateful.

Dani: 44:21

If you are willing, would you be open to a lightning round?

Tony: 44:27

Of course.

Dani: 44:27

Fun questions. Okay Tony, besides this podcast? Do you have a favorite podcast that you'd like to recommend to our listeners?

Tony: 44:36

COVID really disrupted my podcast diet, but this this feels timely because they just dropped a trailer for the new Dune movie.

Dani: 44:45

Oh my gosh.

Emily JN: 44:48

I'm ready.

Dani: 44:50

Good thing Emily didn't know about this earlier because that's all we'd talk about.

Tony: 44:52

The podcast Gom Jabbar ...

Emily JN: 44:56

Oh! Uh, huh ...

Tony: 44:58

Are you familiar?

Emily JN: 45:00

Oh yeah!

Dani: 45:00

She is a Dune fanatic like my husband. I'm like, "You guys need to chat about this." But this is fine. It's not that I don't care, Tony, it's just that they've read all the books and

Tony: 45:09

Gotcha. Gom Jabbar. Great. I had read Dune, like, you know, I'm like ... 15 years ago, and after the boys were born, I decided not just to reread the book, but to finally, read Frank's other books. So yeah - I call him Frank because I listened to Tom Jabbar and they call him Frank all the time. Yeah, it's just it's just to super nerdy guys who just like love everything about Dune and they do these book club episodes, where they really, break each one down into like digestible chunks and really like dig into like, the themes and the minutiae. They'll do spin off episodes about, these tiny little like details or side characters. It's like Dune has such seems to have such a level-headed fandom around it as opposed to some other big nerdy things. Yeah. Love it.

Dani: 45:56

Not to name any other nerdy things!

Emily JN: 45:57

Well, I know what Dani's husband and I are gonna be talking about for the next several weeks!

Dani: 46:02

This could be the thing that gets my father-in-law into podcasts. Because I think he had the dune series and then he introduced it to me.

Tony: 46:12

Oh, nice.

Dani: 46:13

My brother's really into it. I had 21 messages the other day on my WhatsApp because my husband and my brother were talking about Dune I was like, I'm just not gonna participate.

Emily JN: 46:27

I want to get in on that combo.

Tony: 46:28

Same.

Dani: 46:29

Anyway, I'm going to suggest this to lots of people in my family. Cool. Gum Jabbar. Awesome. Tony, are you a fan of having a book in your ear or a book in your hands?

Tony: 46:45

Book in hand.

Dani: 46:46

Oh, reading anything good?

Tony: 46:50

Yeah, right now I'm reading American Prometheus, which is a biography of Robert Oppenheimer.

Emily JN: 46:57

Oh, wow.

Tony: 46:59

The father of the atomic bomb, again - in anticipation of the big movie coming out!

Emily JN: 47:06

Did you read Jurassic Park before Jurassic Park came out?

Tony: 47:10

Oh, you just picked it such a an old wound. I was not allowed to see Jurassic Park in the theater.

Dani: 47:19

Oh, way to bring it up, E!

Tony: 47:20

My mom thought I'd be too scared because I was like in second grade.

Dani: 47:24

Tony, there was a lamb leg or a goat leg that hit the top of that Jeep. That was traumatizing.

Tony: 47:33

When we finally rented it when that leg hit the moonroof. She's like, "See!"

Dani: 47:38

"I told you!"

Emily JN: 47:39

And you're like, "I'm fine."

Tony: 47:41

I read the book in fourth grade, which is definitely too early because

Dani: 47:46

Oh, okay.

Emily JN: 47:47

I had to read the book in order to be allowed to see the movie in theaters. I think my parents were trying to call my bluff, like they thought that I wouldn't do it now. And I was like, "Challenge accepted!"

Dani: 47:58

You want to see that movie so bad!

Tony: 48:00

What a weird approach because I can't think of anything more traumatic to a kid than their own imagination reading a book. Because the movie presented as the movie presents it and that goat legs that go leg. But I still remember being terrified about the nights I spent reading that book. Because the pictures in my head were so much worse. It was so much scarier, but cool. I also like really enjoyed that. And that was the thing. I was like, what if I wanted to be scared?

Dani: 48:31

I'm sorry to make you relive that but thank you for

Emily JN: 48:31

Dani's like, "That does not sound like fun!" indulging us.

Tony: 48:36

No, no, no, no, it's fun. It's the thing my mother always says like, you know, "You're in therapy, because I wouldn't let you see Jurassic Park when you were eight." And I was like,"You're 100% correct!"

Dani: 48:46

See, we got to the bottom of that! What's your go to for a quick mental break?

Tony: 48:54

Well, now that it's nice, I got a new bike, I can bike for the first time in a few years. And now that the boys are at an age where they're easier to manage with one adult, it's been nice just to like go out for an hour and ride a bike. My answer will change in about a week when the new Zelda comes out though.

Dani: 49:14

Oh, snap Tony! Similar to Dune, everybody else in my family is really into Zelda.

Emily JN: 49:22

Counting down?

Dani: 49:24

Yes, there has been discussion in my house ...

Emily JN: 49:26

Dude - my cat is named Link. Okay?

Dani: 49:30

There's been discussion about who's going to chip in to pay for the game because we have... Yeah, my son was like link for Halloween.

Tony: 49:40

Awesome.

Dani: 49:41

Yeah, I mean, it's it's a hit. Tony, what is your best parenting hack? If you have one...

Tony: 49:48

This is probably specific to twin slash multiple parenting but ...

Dani: 49:53

Bring it!

Emily JN: 49:53

Lots of people have twins. This is good.

Dani: 49:55

Two people in our office have twins - out of out of four of us! We're batting 500. That's pretty good!

Tony: 50:05

Come up with a schedule very early and stick to it. My guys couldn't be any different personality wise but they live by the routine. It makes things easier. It made it really easy to sort of spread out feedings overnight, it made it really easy to drop bottles in between meals, naps when they finally outgrew that. They transitioned into a lot of new phases relatively easily. And that was my hack. We never deviated because I was obsessed with control. My obsession for the positive there. Yeah.

Emily JN: 50:40

Sometimes it works.

Dani: 50:43

What is one way that you are going to show yourself a little bit of radical love today, Tony?

Tony: 50:48

I'm not feeling especially creative or like, I want to be thoughtful ... but I know that if I just give myself an hour after bedtime, I know I'm going to feel better having done it than if I don't.

Dani: 51:01

Emily's nodding and thinking, "Oh, that's a good idea."

Emily JN: 51:03

I'm like, "Can I fit that in? Yeah, I mean ..."

Dani: 51:06

Let's fit that into our schedule. Emily, do you have any questions for Tony?

Emily JN: 51:11

I do? I do. I'm going off script because me.

Dani: 51:13

Oh okay, Tony. Uh, oh ...

Emily JN: 51:16

So, lately I've been asking people about about how they take their water. But I want to go in a different direction here. I would like to know if you and I were to create a hangout space for PSI staff and volunteers, which games need to be present? Board games, card games, video games ...

Tony: Board games: 51:42

I think Ticket to Ride would be be a lot of fun. Yes, maybe have some some off the shelf Magic the Gathering decks handy.

Emily JN: 51:53

Uh huh.

Tony: 51:54

Whatever the latest Mario Kart is, and a Miss Pac Man cabinet.

Emily JN: 52:02

Uh huh. Wendy, I'm gonna need a bigger budget.

Dani: 52:05

We're gonna need some games. Listen, we're gonna cool it on the bus for a while and we're saving PSI money - you're welcome.

Emily JN: 52:13

Right?

Dani: 52:13

We're gonna need some games. Well, Tony, thank you so much for joining us today and giving us a perspective that we haven't heard on the podcast yet. We are so thankful for you being here and indulging in our off script questions and that you came on and talked about feelings. Man.

Tony: 52:32

Thank you so much. I'm so I'm so grateful for the opportunity.

Dani: 52:36

Thanks for tuning in to the I am one podcast, check out today's show notes where we'll drop links to all the important things that we mentioned in this episode Please consider sharing about our show and social media and following and rating our show, wherever it is that you listen to podcasts. It only takes a minute of your time. And well, that'll help with our collective mission of bringing resources and local support to folks worldwide. From everyone here at PSI, thanks again for listening!